• Tuesday, December 10, 2019

Pakistan's New F-16 Block 52 vs SU 30 MKI.

Discussion in 'Pakistan Air Force' started by Kinshuk, Jan 22, 2010.

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  1. Kinshuk

    Kinshuk BANNED

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    So long time no Versus thread.

    But it's time for one as Pakistan will have F-16 block 52 with BVR capability, irrespective of nos compared to MKIs in India, What will be Air combat scenario between the two beasts.

    Block 52 would be having new electronics, better radar, AMRAAM capability against SU MKI.

    So it begins. One on One.

    No attacks on country please. It's only dedicated to F-16block 52 vs SU 30 MKI and please keep it limited to that only.:coffee:
     
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  2. Storm Force

    Storm Force BANNED

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    SU30MKI radar is a PESA system versis F16/52 a traditional MSA APG68 RADAR although stil good.

    THE PESA scans over a wider width, at twice the speed, over a greater range.

    PESA is a half a generation in tech ahead of the APG68.

    su30mki carries upto 12 aam versis F16 around 6 MISSLES

    su30mki has a TVC engine meaning its AOA(ANGLE OF ATTACK) CAN BE EXTREMME..

    su30mki has 2 engines so its range acceleration is superior.

    SU30MKI carries far more fuel so combat radius is twice that of the F16/52.

    F16/52 is an older plane by well over a decade
    _____________________________________________

    SU30MKI RCS is massive big disadvantage

    F16/52 BVR missle AMRAAM considered the best in world.

    F16/52 proven in combat SU30MKI never used in anger.

    _____________________________________________

    SU30MKI is a newer more poweful plane. only arrived in 2003

    Best flanker in the world.

    F16/52 a magnificent legacy USA fighter with awesome performance
    globally..

    MKI has the edge but not by much i think
     
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  3. ptldM3

    ptldM3 SENIOR MEMBER

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    The SU-30 can track targets as far away as 350km, and bombers as far as 400km, how does the F-16's radar compair?
     
  4. Kinshuk

    Kinshuk BANNED

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    I don't know Sir that's why started the thread. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  5. Storm Force

    Storm Force BANNED

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    APG68 Mechanical scanned radar.

    Its tracking nos and speed of tracking is less than PESA BARS.

    I think it can track up to 150km but will take longer to pik up the signals than a PESA.
     
  6. ptldM3

    ptldM3 SENIOR MEMBER

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    Well played sir...:partay:
     
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  7. sancho

    sancho ELITE MEMBER

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    Of course most of the specs clearly speaks in favour of MKI, but I think it won't be as easy as it seems!

    The question is when will the MKI detect the F16 and when the F16 the MKI?
    The Bars has more range, but mainly for bigger targets than an F16 (correct me if I'm wrong please, RCS around 1m²?), on contrary the F16 radar has less range, but might be able to detect the MKI at max range, because of the high RCS of the MKI.
    Aim 120 vs R77 should be clear, but also interesting imo will be, Aim 9 + JHMCS vs supermanuverability + better EWS.

    So even in BVR, as well as in WVR the F16s (not to forget the older once that will be upgraded to MLU level) will cause some headache to IAF and MKI.
     
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  8. Peshwa

    Peshwa SENIOR MEMBER

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    Isnt our primary air-superiority fighter the Mig29? In all eventuality, wouldnt the MKI serve as an AWACS role to the MIG29 which would go head to head with an F-16 if ever the situation arose?

    I find it hard to grasp if the IAF would pitch an asset like the MKI directly with an F-16...unless in a dire situation when we have platforms like the Bison and MIG-29 that can take on this role and are solely procured for this purpose....

    From what I hear....The Bison is quite a beast.....Not to be written off just yet....

    But Im assuming this is all hypothetical.....right?

    Maybe a MuradK callibre personality can enlighten us.....
     
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  9. desimorty

    desimorty FULL MEMBER

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    I don't care about the radars. The R-77 vs AMRAAM is the the big what if. The Falcon can hold its own in BVR, or air to air. But the SU-30MKI bombs better and has a higher endurance. Lets say the Falcon has a even chance. The Flankers or IAF still outnumber PAF, easily, ontop of that the Falcons can only hold a defensive postion due to the increasing air shield of India. Longer range of SAMS means that India doesn't need to send aircraft to deal with aircraft. S-300 SAMs have a estimated range of 200 km. SAMS are also catching up. Ontop of that the range of indian missiles from ballistic to cruise are stocking up on the border. Cold START could just might as well be a realise of artillery to dystroy Pakistani defence assets.
     
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  10. Kinshuk

    Kinshuk BANNED

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    Sir,

    What about the RAM coating to reduce the RCS of MKI. I feel so stupid of MKI having such a larger RCS signature.
     
  11. Kinshuk

    Kinshuk BANNED

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    Though related to Block 52 vs MKI but as Sir Peshwa mentioned, what are the chances of Mig 29(whatever version India is using) against block 52?
     
  12. Horus

    Horus ADMINISTRATOR

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    Comparing a Multi role fighter with a heavy air superiority fighter jet simply just does not make any sense to me.

    Anyway lets do it.

    Radar comparison



    As we know F-16c or Block 50/52+ comes with a V(9) version of the AN/APG-68 radar provides both improved air-to-air capabilities and air-to-ground capabilities.

    F-16 Radar Features

    The AN/APG-68 radar is a long range up to 300 km and a Pulse-doppler radar designed by Westinghouse (now Northrop Grumman) to replace AN/APG-66 radar in the F-16 Fighting Falcon. The AN/APG-68 radar system consists of the following line-replaceable units:
    Antenna
    Dual Mode Transmitter (DMT)
    Modular Low-power radio frequency (MLPRF)
    Programmable signal processor (PSP)

    The AN/APG-68(V)9 radar is the latest development. Besides the increase in scan range compared to the previous version, it has a Synthetic aperture radar (SAR) capability.

    Benefits

    30 percent increase in detection range.

    Improvements in false alarm rate and mutual interference;
    Four versus two tracked targets in the Situation Awareness mode (a search-while-track mode)

    Larger search volume and improved track performance in Track While Scan mode.

    Improved track performance in Single Target Track mode;
    Two-foot resolution in new Synthetic Aperture Radar (SAR) mode, which allows autonomous delivery of precision, all-weather, standoff weapons
    Increased detection range in Sea Surveillance mode;
    Improved target detection and map quality in Ground Moving Target Indication mode.

    Su-30mki radar



    The forward facing NIIP N011M Bars (Panther) is a powerful integrated passive electronically scanned array radar. The N011M is a digital multi-mode dual frequency band radar.The N011M can function in air-to-air and air-to-land/sea mode simultaneously while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial or GPS navigation system. It is equipped with a modern digital weapons control system as well as anti-jamming features. N011M has a 350 km search range and a maximum 200 km tracking range, and 60 km in the rear hemisphere. The radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously. These targets can even include cruise missiles and motionless helicopters. The Su-30MKI can function as a mini-AWACS as a director or command post for other aircraft. The target co-ordinates can be transferred automatically to at least four other aircraft. The radar can detect ground targets such as tanks at 40–50 km.

    F-16 Engine:
    One Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 turbofan, rated at 17,000 lb.s.t. dry and 28,500 lb.s.t. with afterburning or one General Electric F110-GE-129 turbofan, rated at 17,155 lb.s.t. dry and 28,984 lb.s.t. with afterburning.

    Performance:
    Maximum short-endurance speed: Mach 2.05 (1353 mph) at 40,000 feet. Maximum sustained speed Mach 1.89 (1247 mph) at 40,000 feet. Tactical radius (hi-lo-hi interdiction on internal fuel with six 500-lb bombs) 360 miles. Maximum ferry range 2450 miles with maximum external fuel (excluding 600gal. tanks or CFT's)

    Dogfight capability.


    F-16 is meant is the most successful dog fighter ever created it has over a 100 kills without sustaining a single loss ( About 30 of them are from PAF:pakistan: )

    This video speaks for itself that nothing matches the Viper in a dogfight specially when we take Block 52's Joint helmet mounted cuing system or JHMCS which is simply a look at shoot at capability to fire its infrared guided missiles so the Viper would not need TVC;) .

    http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/KWSN-
    Men/339/


    Introduction video



    F-16 Block 52+ Cockpit.



    VS

    SU30 Mki cockpit.




    F16 B-52 A2A missiles

    Air-to-air missiles:
    2× AIM-7 Sparrow
    6× AIM-9 Sidewinder
    6× IRIS-T or
    6× AIM-120D AMRAAM Range 130+miles!!!!

    SU-30 A2A missiles

    Air to Air Missiles:
    10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
    10 × Astra missile active radar homing medium range AAM, 80 km
    6 × R-27P (AA-10C) semi-active radar guided, long range AAM 130 km;) There is a difference between Miles and Kms isn't it??:agree:
    6 × R-27P (AA-10D) Infrared homing extended range version, long range AAM 120 km
    2 × R-27R/AA-10A semi-active radar guided, medium range AAM,80 km
    2 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
    6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So my conclusion is that Tough SU-30 is a whole different class of fighter tough it is Twin engine , Dual cockpit and it can carry a hell load of weapons and has a greater range.

    In a BVR fight F-16 Block 52+ with a range of 300kms and SAAB Erie AWACS and AIM-120D will shoot down an SU-30 way before.

    But the issue is Pakistan has ordered a AIM-120C variant which has a range of only 105km so Pakistan must buy a D variant or it " could " be on our order already.

    In a dogfight.

    PAF pilots is one of the Most experienced air forces which has used F-16 . Over 30+ years of Pilot experience with Vipers mean something!!

    Su-30 is highly maneuverable but F-16 can beat its TVC advantage by smart electronics and Infrared guided weapons and not to forget JHMCS.

    Regards:
     
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  13. Horus

    Horus ADMINISTRATOR

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    Then you would be in a deep trouble :agree:


    Falcons are not for Invading India but for air defense only.

    I am sure this one is going to hurt you a lot.

    This one for your MKI , Migs , MMRCA yada yda.(Spada 2000)

    96999d599d5fdc7e918b64d2b1b66284.jpg

    And This one for your beloved Phalcon.

    FT-2000 with Anti radiation Missiles and a range of 200km with the detection range of 350 km. ( I know that you know that we do not have them but it could be wrong who knows?)






    And our missiles are sitting somewhere near Afghan border right?:lol:

    Yes wet dreams of General Kapoor to take on Sinopak , tell him to stop dreaming.

    Thanks:pakistan::china:
     
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  14. gogbot

    gogbot BANNED

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    Well now that PAk finally has BVR missiles. They have finally leveled the playing field.

    Now It comes down to

    -the BVR missiles being used.
    -The radar equipped on the planes.
    -The EW suites

    Only if one side has the better systems, for all three of those categories. Can they be said to have the advantage.
     
  15. desimorty

    desimorty FULL MEMBER

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    Black blood, I think you're still not getting the picture or you just want to answer my statements with another condradicting one. You're statements don't come as a suprise nore do they actually fill my knowledge.
    While I do mantian that Pakistan will indeed purchase ballistic missiles and produce their own artillery units and ammunition. They still can not produce or purchase the vast numbers India can. There is a military gap between the two and both armies are aware of it.
    India has more missiles, and will only build more, more than Pakistan.
    India has more of everything and will only build more of everything, more than Pakistan.

    The SAMs you've listed are SPADA, and FT-2000. I believe that the SPADA is short ranged and the FT-2000 has too many RUSSIAN components. The system itself recieved Russian assistance and this system Pakistan has not recieved and is prone to sanctions even if Pakistan WAS INTERESTED in it.

    On top of that the Indian military even doesn't purchase S-300 or relatives anymore because they are too unreliable and costly. The Indian military only purchased a few systems for protection of very important military installations. The rest is medium and short range sams that have a higher kill probability because of their inherent shorter range. Which helps guidence radars to be more accurate at these shorter distances.
    They future the Indian military will have longer range SAMS, up to 80 km and they are training their pilots to counter the threat of S-300 SAMS.
    So how will the Pakistani side counter Indian military SAMS....? they can't and they won't. They may just aim for the airfields but the sams are too nuemerious. PAF's only reliable aircraft capable of jamming older or newer SAMS is the F-16 and they have too few of them.
    The Indian military can counter Pakistani SAMS with MBRL or Missiles. although the MBRL and artillery will be most likily. Anything else can be done with Jags, and Flankers. Both of which exceed in SEAD.
    IAF will also hunt and dystroy Pakistani armour clearing the way for for Indian infantry and armour. The T-90/72 doesn't need to be shot at. Leaving the T-90 to deal with bunkers and moving the line forward to Pakistan's rear artillery which with mines would have dystroyed alot of the Indian military tanks.
    Alkhalid and T-80 are tanks that are best suited to attack during night with a preamptive attack in mind. During the day, they are fair game for even the basic T-72 since both tanks share the same major flaw.

    But this above is just the possibility. They actual action would involve alot more infantry after 2 weeks of war than this. The initial strike will always be airstrikes and artillery as seen in the previous wars. India and Pakistan, have always managed to fight a respectable war, which is largerly different to what the PLA have been use to.
     
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