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Pakistan's National Identity, My thoughts and opinions on Pakistan's problems.

bababho

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The BIGGEST fallacy in Pakistani identity is to assume that non-Pakistani Muslims view Islam and Islamic unity/the Ummah with the same intense enthusiasm that Pakistani Muslims do. They don't. The Arabs/Palestinians, Iranians, Turks, Afghans, Somalians etc DON'T. They are all HIGHLY nationalistic whereas Pakistanis by and large are not. Pakistanis don't understand or realize this.

There is no pakistani identity if you keep ummah aside,

Rajputs on both sides
Gujjars on both sides
Jatt / Jutt on Both Sides
Sindhis on Both Sides
Gujratis on Both Sides
Chauhans on Both Sides
Choudhary on Both Sides
Suri / Bajwa / Malik / Shah / Gill / Cheema on Both Sides
Dhar became Dar, Bhat became Butt

anything on east side of Indus has nothing different (75%) , Balochs & Afgan (KP) bordering area is very different (25%)
 

Adonis

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That's true, it will help the religious realize that there is no such union or harmony based on religion anymore and that will fuel nationalist feelings. But I also agree with OP in that Pakistanis have very unreasonable expectations from anyone who's a Muslim, we can't mind our own business.

The Muslim world is, ironically, becoming more and more racist and intolerant, Pakistan is probably one of the least racist nations in the world towards any race or religion, the intolerance only derives from religious differences. The faster we move towards Nationalism, the faster we will become more tolerant and more self centered, till then we will always be more occupied with what's happening elsewhere in regards to Islam rather than the issues we face domestically.
I disagree on the bold and so does the World. Look at this forum, the words and sentiments we express about other religion, the acts like burning of Sri Lankan national and our own nationals too (minorities) in the name of blasphemy... looking everything from the lens of religion.....demonstrates adversely about our tolerance and non-racist claims.

To me, the solution is 1. modern education....it is key that will help our youth to focus on right areas, progressive thinking, prosperity, skilled-masses...and second put a curb on madrasa-mullah culture.....make religion a matter of belief than of living....less religious , less radicalised mindsets, less intolerance, less pseudo-superiority-complex and more co-existence with rest of the world.
 

PakAlp

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Identity is language or heavy culture - the Arabs have Arabic, the Turks have Turkce, Indonesia has it own - India owned up to its land.

Nations that did not unit on either language or culture are going to be disjointed.
Im glad you brought that up - because no one else was pointing to it.

Urdu is what is really keeping it all together. The headless chicken’s skeleton isn’t all Islam - its Urdu. Yet the hate by ethofascists against it, it’s bastardized versions running amok with roman letters and English in it are leaving that damaged too.
Fantastic point. Pakistan language, Art, Culture, food, values, history must be taught to all youth. Allama Iqbal Rahimullah already mentioned this but corrupt governments have failed. We have 10M overseas Pakistanis, when did our government ever tried to promote our culture and language to them. They don't care.
 

Sainthood 101

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Fantastic point. Pakistan language, Art, Culture, food, values, history must be taught to all youth. Allama Iqbal Rahimullah already mentioned this but corrupt governments have failed. We have 10M overseas Pakistanis, when did our government ever tried to promote our culture and language to them. They don't care.
Urdu language and culture has been promoted the most- I don't know what more promotion they want now? officially kill all others or criminalize it?
that's why *Pakistani languages
 
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PakAlp

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The Islamic wahabi ideology that was enforced on the country originates overseas and was applied equally on all ethnic groups.
Billions were and are spent to spread this ideology. It is a nationalist and religious ideology of a certain country. Our leaders received millions to look the other way. Western ideology is also promoted with billions of investment. Those who follow or have soft corner for these ideologies have their loyalty to these people. They will always back them and support them.

Urdu language and culture has been promoted the most- I don't know what more promotion they want now? officially kill all others or criminalize it?
No promote urdu as the national/government language and promote others as local/cultural languages. I've never seen Pakistan promote Urdu/Culture to overseas Pakistanis. Most of the foreign ministry parties are westernised with alcohol etc.
 

Ssan

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The destiny of Pakistan is larger than the destiny of a single language like Urdu. I myself am an Urdu speaker but Pakistans destiny and purpose is to be the model for a truly Islamic democracy.

We can promote a common language that is fine- but we cannot say that is all why Pakistan was formed. To understand why it was formed, we have to refer to the Objectives resolution. If Urdu was what made someone Pakistani, why would Allama Iqbal invite Leopold Weiss, aka Muhammad Asad, to represent Pakistan at the UN and give him a citizenship? Muhammad Asad’s achievements relate to islamic ideas- not to language. That enough is a hint of what Pakistan was intended to be.

The truth is we have failed to understand what was given to us, what a lot of people sacrificed their lives for. The closest state to ours is Israel. Except Israel’s destiny and reach is limited to a very small group of people. If we accept what we are made to do, ours can be significantly larger.
 

Ssan

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And this speak about secularism is misinformed frankly.

Secularism can mean many things to different people. For starters, what sort of secularism are we going for?

1) are we going for American secularism, the idea that the state should not influence the church? If so, fine, yes that’s a good principle.
2) are we going for French secularism, where the church should not influence the state? If so, even here, fine, but with the caveat that we have to be clear what the fundamental source of our morality is. I believe an Islamic civil state would adopt the maqasid as shariah as foundational principles for the state. That God has proscribed certain sacred human rights. In a truly secular state, I.e. In some European countries, the foundational principle is derived from Millers Utilitarianism and Kant- frankly, have no interest in accepting this for Pakistan under any circumstance. If we accept lslamic principles, the maqasid as sharia, as our foundational principle for our legal code, we will inevitably have some interpretation of shariah. It does not have to be a shariah that discriminated against minorities but it also does not have to look western either.
3) if we are going for French secularism, ofc, the bit of banning public displays of religion would never work. I hope no one thinks we can go the Laicite way or Ismet Inonu way in Turkey and ban the right of little girls to wear headscarves.
 

Sainthood 101

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The destiny of Pakistan is larger than the destiny of a single language like Urdu. I myself am an Urdu speaker but Pakistans destiny and purpose is to be the model for a truly Islamic democracy.

We can promote a common language that is fine- but we cannot say that is all why Pakistan was formed. To understand why it was formed, we have to refer to the Objectives resolution. If Urdu was what made someone Pakistani, why would Allama Iqbal invite Leopold Weiss, aka Muhammad Asad, to represent Pakistan at the UN and give him a citizenship? Muhammad Asad’s achievements relate to islamic ideas- not to language. That enough is a hint of what Pakistan was intended to be.

The truth is we have failed to understand what was given to us, what a lot of people sacrificed their lives for. The closest state to ours is Israel. Except Israel’s destiny and reach is limited to a very small group of people. If we accept what we are made to do, ours can be significantly larger.
Israel permits homosexuality, bars, drugs everything
they are socially very liberal while conservatives live side by side

So no, on a societal level its very different

And this speak about secularism is misinformed frankly.

Secularism can mean many things to different people. For starters, what sort of secularism are we going for?

1) are we going for American secularism, the idea that the state should not influence the church? If so, fine, yes that’s a good principle.
2) are we going for French secularism, where the church should not influence the state? If so, even here, fine, but with the caveat that we have to be clear what the fundamental source of our morality is. I believe an Islamic civil state would adopt the maqasid as shariah as foundational principles for the state. That God has proscribed certain sacred human rights. In a truly secular state, I.e. In some European countries, the foundational principle is derived from Millers Utilitarianism and Kant- frankly, have no interest in accepting this for Pakistan under any circumstance. If we accept lslamic principles, the maqasid as sharia, as our foundational principle for our legal code, we will inevitably have some interpretation of shariah. It does not have to be a shariah that discriminated against minorities but it also does not have to look western either.
3) if we are going for French secularism, ofc, the bit of banning public displays of religion would never work. I hope no one thinks we can go the Laicite way or Ismet Inonu way in Turkey and ban the right of little girls to wear headscarves.
I always liked American views on religion
 

Ssan

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Israel permits homosexuality, bars, drugs everything
they are socially very liberal while conservatives live side by side

So no, on a societal level its very different
Not what I mean- I mean that Israel has captured the imagination of Jewry in all parts of the world. That Jews of all shades and values (not necessarily all Jews) have some affinity to that state - “a Juden Stat”.

That is something we could be possibly- if we fulfill our destiny.
 

bababho

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Most tribes of Punjab and sindh are not found in India and agar hain bhi to numbers kam hain
Rajput / Gujjar/ Jatts are not limited to Punjab (Punjab, Harayana, HP / Uttarakhand, UP, Rajasthan and northern MP basically top half of India have strong presence of these tribes)
 

PAKISTANFOREVER

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There is no pakistani identity if you keep ummah aside,

Rajputs on both sides
Gujjars on both sides
Jatt / Jutt on Both Sides
Sindhis on Both Sides
Gujratis on Both Sides
Chauhans on Both Sides
Choudhary on Both Sides
Suri / Bajwa / Malik / Shah / Gill / Cheema on Both Sides
Dhar became Dar, Bhat became Butt

anything on east side of Indus has nothing different (75%) , Balochs & Afgan (KP) bordering area is very different (25%)




No gujuratis here in Pakistan............. :lol:..........due to intetrmarrying between Pakistani Rajputs, Jatts, Chauhans etc and the tribes West of us these ethnicities in Pakistan are no longer racially and genetically the same as their indian counterparts...........especially since the indian counterparts have intermarried with south and central indian ethnicities that are alien to Pakistan.......:azn:
 

Maira La

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anything on east side of Indus has nothing different (75%) , Balochs & Afgan (KP) bordering area is very different (25%)

Nothing different from what? Indian Punjabis? Indian Punjabis are very different from rest of India (except the Punjabi Dalits).
 

SQ8

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Fantastic point. Pakistan language, Art, Culture, food, values, history must be taught to all youth. Allama Iqbal Rahimullah already mentioned this but corrupt governments have failed. We have 10M overseas Pakistanis, when did our government ever tried to promote our culture and language to them. They don't care.
Overseas Pakistanis are a hodgepodge. The first generation immigrant (doesn’t matter when they came) bring their culture but are lost trying to blend in or end up isolated and try to repress it in their second generation. If they succeed isolation occurs but then its not Pakistani culture and its unsustainable in the 3rd generation.
If they fail then its lost.

Overseas Pakistanis (they aren’t really by the second generation) have to create their own culture that incorporates a hybrid. They have to instill the best of Pakistani and foriegn culture but dispel the toxicity from both - not an easy task at all.
 

bababho

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Nothing different from what? Indian Punjabis? Indian Punjabis are very different from rest of India (except the Punjabi Dalits).
go and study basics of sampling and overlaps,
Larger sample being diverse one can never have high overlap with smaller ones, its always measured what % of smaller set has over lap, as I told 75% of Pakistanis are no different than Indians as 100% Bangladeshis also are not different from Indian, but that does not mean Pakistani's and BDs have overlap,
Pakistan and BD are two small sets having very large overlap (75% & 100%) with a large set (India)

No gujuratis here in Pakistan............. :lol:..........due to intetrmarrying between Pakistani Rajputs, Jatts, Chauhans etc and the tribes West of us these ethnicities in Pakistan are no longer racially and genetically the same as their indian counterparts...........especially since the indian counterparts have intermarried with south and central indian ethnicities that are alien to Pakistan.......:azn:
Mr Darwin,
70 years me kaun si race change hoti hai, kaun se genetic mutations ho jaate hain it takes thousands of years or even more

A chimp and a Human are 100s of million of years apart but have 97% common genes
 

PakAlp

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Overseas Pakistanis are a hodgepodge. The first generation immigrant (doesn’t matter when they came) bring their culture but are lost trying to blend in or end up isolated and try to repress it in their second generation. If they succeed isolation occurs but then its not Pakistani culture and its unsustainable in the 3rd generation.
If they fail then its lost.

Overseas Pakistanis (they aren’t really by the second generation) have to create their own culture that incorporates a hybrid. They have to instill the best of Pakistani and foriegn culture but dispel the toxicity from both - not an easy task at all.
I am 2nd generation. I learnt Urdu, always ate Pakistani food, drinks. The clothing can be a difficult part, i try to learn Urdu calligraphy. Urdu TV etc is difficult. The 3rd generation i try to teach them urdu/culture but its very difficult for them to understand. Pakistan is not exactly a place where you can take them to learn something good. Lies, corruption, propaganda, twisting of words, false allegations is normal in the villages.

You can always preserve your culture. I understand some isolated can take place but then again this is the reason why Pakistan and India separated, our elders wanted to preserve their culture, religion, identity. We must find a way to preserve our way of life but also learn to get on with others, respect their culture and way of life.

Look at the west, they worked hard and created their own way of life, culture, fashion etc. The whole world loves it and people are attractive towards it. It is slowly creeping in to Pakistani society aswell, and wherever this western culture reaches, it dominates that society.
 

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