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Pakistan's National Identity, My thoughts and opinions on Pakistan's problems.

HydraChess

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After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.

Turkish Situation:

With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.

The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.

The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.

These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.

Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.

Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:

Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.

Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?

We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.

All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.

My Opinion:

I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.



These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I

This is not the first discussion I have seen about Pakistani identity and I am sure it will not be the last. I have one question to ask...

For Pakistani Identity, Is it NOT enough to be a Pakistani alone ie someone who comes from the land of Pakistan?

May be you want to include Islamic identity in it but since your very flag has a narrow white band, I guess, being Pakistani should be enough. I know it works for most of the world, why will it not work for you? Being Indian works for a vast majority of Indians (except may be Kashmiri, some stupid Periyaar types, some north eastern tribes or so) and we are much more divided than you can ever hope to be.

Whats with this identity crisis? Teenagers face this, not nations.
 

jus_chillin

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Pashtuns don't like others speaking Pashto at all, or getting involved in the culture, unless you live in that area.

Tbh it's kinda begging it if you go out of your way to do all of that

Non-Pashtun speaking Pashto sounds rètardèd

No wtf

Tons of Baloch people know Pashto and no one has problems with them.

Where do you get this info from?

Tbh it's kinda begging it if you go out of your way to do all of that

Non-Pashtun speaking Pashto sounds rètardèd

Knowing simple phrases and being aware of other people's cultures isn't "begging"

Don't listen to Afghans or insular Pak-Pashtuns

That’s a retarded statement as I know punjabis that can speak better pashto in Peshawar than overseas pashtuns.

Bro if you go to some parts of Balochistan some Baloch people are fully fluent in Pashto.

People need to realize that the Punjabi-Pakhtun linkages in the form of migrations, and settlement (in Punjab), inter-marriages, economic links and associations is a tie that binds us into the Country of Pakistan. A break in this tie, will be catastrophic to Pakistan and something our enemies have been trying for years. Dont fall for this trap on both sides.

We need to expand this tie to the Sindhis and Baloch too.
 

Bleek

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For Pakistani Identity, Is it NOT enough to be a Pakistani alone ie someone who comes from the land of Pakistan?
To an extent yeah, but a lot of people feel disconnected from each other as people or from the framework of the state.

No wtf

Tons of Baloch people know Pashto and no one has problems with them.

Where do you get this info from?



Knowing simple phrases and being aware of other people's cultures isn't "begging"

Don't listen to Afghans or insular Pak-Pashtuns



Bro if you go to some parts of Balochistan some Baloch people are fully fluent in Pashto.



We need to expand this tie to the Sindhis and Baloch too.
Baloch living where though? In Pashtun dominated areas?

And I said that because a non-Pashtun spreaking Pashto will have a weird unnatural accent.
 

jus_chillin

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Baloch living where though? In Pashtun dominated areas?



One in what sense? I don't think anyone can deny the ethnic, linguistic, cultural divide

A Punjabi will obviously listen to Punjabi music

There's a language barrier which makes it much harder to listen to Pashto music because they'll have know clue what is being said

Plus telling a Punjabi not to listen to Punjabi music orginating from India or not to interact with them is like telling a Pashtun not to do the same with Afghan Pashtuns

It's not realistic

Which is why big tent is needed.

Most Punjabis live in Pakistan

Most Pashtuns live in Pakistan

Most Dards live in Pakistan

Most Sindhis live in Pakistan

Most Baloch live in Pakistan
 

Kağan Zafer

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The secular ones love the west and want to be like them but that is non of our business. If Pakistanis are going to mess around in their country then they deserve to be treated like shit. Its simple change your ways and act sensible. The secular Pakistanis are also the same.

I am a secular Turkish gay man and I still wouldn't describe myself as a person who 'loves' 'the West'. In fact, I'm white like a Northern European. My skin is not just fair, I'm talking actual white Caucasian male, yet, I'd never in a million years count myself European. Atatürk's Europe is dead, don't forget this. There are many Kemalist groups who're opposing Turkey's EU membership.

Why would I squeeze my identity into one category? I have European and Asian features. I can talk to an Uighur from East Turkistan in China or debate the future of Europe with a Scottish dude.

You're underestimating the shared foundation of religious and secular camps in Turkey. Yes, there's a significant difference between the two groups but certain things are untouchable in our society. I know many religous groups who would select Japan over Saudi Arabia in a heartbeat. I can also show you secular people in Turkey who're prefering a Chinese-style, anti-liberal role model for our society.

The truth is that Turkey is changing and evolving rapidly. It's different to what it was just 20 years ago.
 

Sainthood 101

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Which is why big tent is needed.

Most Punjabis live in Pakistan

Most Pashtuns live in Pakistan

Most Dards live in Pakistan

Most Sindhis live in Pakistan

Most Baloch live in Pakistan
Historically always carried the culture but now fell WAY!!! behind
Afghanistan is the land of Pashtun
Weird White people who just happen to live in Pakistan - got nothing to do with it ( Not saying that this is my opinion but they are still treated like a weird outlier rather an actual part of our country- even though 10% of our population is the other section which is mostly Dard that's more than our Urdu speaking communities settled in Pakistan- who played a critical role in our history)
Alright- they are sorted
Like Punjab- Iran side dominates the culture ,cinema etc

We are clearly failing to use our advantages... :coffee:
 
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Talwar e Pakistan

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If as some of our posters are saying, we turn towards secularism, there is nothing special about Pakistan and the Pakistani nation will disintegrate into 5 separate ethnic nations. Not to speak about the Indian immigrants. Of which Jinnah belonged. The biggest Achilles heal for us has been our demographic make up- pre-71, when the bengalis decided to become secular, they could simply vote for bengalism and where did that leave the rest of west Pakistan. Now, imagine if Punjab openly decides to just vote on ethnicity or secular identity, where will that leave the rest of us.
So no, the goal is not to be some insular ethnic nationalist country based on some indus cradle identity. The only reason we have held together is because of our religious (Islamic) identity. We should espouse to be more than this too. We can be
what Prussia was for the hundreds of small Germanic states that it absorbed if we become strong and independent.

No one is asking Pakistan to become a secular state. However, it must be highlighted that religion as the sole pillar of an identity is not feasible, especially in these times.

What I'm saying is not a new idea, in fact, it predates the notion of Pakistan as some state created solely for religion and only having religion as it's unifying factor.

What Pakistanis deliberately are not taught is that the idea of Pakistan far predates the All-India Muslim League (whom initially ridiculed the concept) and instead has it's origins in the student organizations of Bazm-i-Shibli (founded in 1915) and later the Pakistan National Liberation Movement (1930) founded by 4 Punjabi and Pashtun students headed by Choudary Rehmat Ali, in fact, if Rehmat Ali's claim that his ideas were passed onto him by his father is to be believed, then the idea of Pakistan may have been floating around as early as the 1880's, mere decades after the British conquest of modern-day Pakistan.

These groups were created as a pushback to what they perceived as a British attempt to "Indianize" their distinct 'nations':

----

"India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; nor the home of one single nation. It is, in fact, the designation of a State created by the British for the first time in history. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of the Indian nation at any period of its history, but who have, on the contrary, from the dawn of history till the advent of the British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own". ~ Now or Never, 1933

"The congress had designated all British possessions in South Asia as India denied to the non Indian nations the right to their own nationhood, and, by making pretentious claims, stamped Indian nationality on the peoples of this area." ~ "What does the Pakistan National Movement Stand For?" Pamphlet, 1930's

"That is, the statement which was to save us from national self-destruction on the altar of "Indians", safeguard our right to distinct national existence, mark the appearance of a de-Indianized Muslim country of nearly 35 million people, protect the heritage of the first three centuries of our history, inflict the first decisive defeat on the forces of "Indianism", and last, but by no means least, alter forever the course of the Millat, of Dinia (South Asia), and, I dare say, of Asia." ~ Ch, Millet and the Mission, 1930's

This mistake has certainly cost us dear. It has compromised our nationality and labelled us all as "Indian". I say this, not because there is anything wrong with the word "India" which, in itself, is perhaps as respectable as any other name; but because we are not "Indian" and, therefore, for us to style ourselves or our institutions "Indian", is nothing but an act of renegation. ~ Ch, The Menace of Indianism, 1930's

----


In response, they sought the independence of their 'homeland': Pakistan, a federation of 5 regions that were distinct from India but close enough to each other to constitute a single nation.

An important note here is that they saw religion as one of three (not the sole) grounds for the basis of the independence of Pakistan:

"I am enclosing herewith an appeal on behalf of the thirty million Muslims of PAKISTAN, who live in the five Northern Units of India--Punjab, North-West Frontier (Afghan) Province, Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan. It embodies their demand for the recognition of their national status, as distinct from the other inhabitants of India, by the grant to Pakistan of a separate Federal Constitution on religious, social and historical grounds." ~ Pakistan Declaration, 1933

In their literature, they saw Pakistan as a nation that had always existed, but had went through different names in history. They also highlighted Pakistan's connection to it's ancient heritage, a notion that many members here mock. This is remarkable considering that this was from the early 1900's.

"It will therefore be seen that Pakistan is one of the most ancient and illustrious countries of the Orient. Not only that. It is the only nation in the world which in the antiquity of its legend and lore, as in the character of its history and hopes, compares with Iraq and Egypt -the countries which are known as the cradle of the achievements of Mankind." ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"It must be remembered that, in different periods of its life, Pakistan has had different names -names whose very variety epitomizes its past history, just as its present name symbolizes its present position, its future prospects, and its ultimate destiny in the world" ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"The Mihran, also known as the Indus, is the longest, the greatest, and the most truly national river of Pakistan, and its course lies through most of the provinces of the country" ~ Ch, Physical Features

"In their origin the Paks belong to the stock from which sprang those gifted tribes of the pre-historic times who created and developed the oldest civilization of the Mihran Valley and, for that matter, of the world." Ch, Ethnical Stocks

"Pakistan, as already mentioned, was one of the three civilized regions of the globe~the other two being Iraq and Egypt. This fact stands out prominently against the dim hack-ground of that still ill-defined period in the growth of the human race. It shows that, in pre-history, Pakistan was one of the lands where civilization was born; where Man made his first attempts at courting Nature for his subsistence; and where he achieved his first successes in his elemental struggle for life." ~ Ch, National Story


That is not to say that they were not steeped in religious nationalism like other groups of their time. For example, they demanded independence for Indian and Bengali Muslims, but in their own separate nations (Osmanistan and Bangistan) instead of having them migrate to Pakistan, the movement also began embracing a more Pan-Islamic ideology towards the end.

The reason why we're not taught about them is because they became fierce opponents of the All-India Muslim League whom they accused of hijacking the Pakistan Movement. They claimed that true independence was not achieved and that they would fight on. This led to an eventual crackdown where the PNLM was axed and its members forced into exile, along with the seizure of their assets. All footprints of the movement was scrubbed and their leader; Rehmat Ali would die in exile, penniless.

@Indus Pakistan @Sainthood 101 @jus_chillin
 
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PakFactor

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She was 14

Yes she was but seems parents are ok with it cause I’ve not seen an international scandal between both nations.

And kidnapped I think

How in the world does he label this halal?

What the ****

I don’t see any news she was kidnapped. If she was and the Turks asked I’m sure our nation would’ve bent both knees and returned her, at the moment we are experts at bending the knees face down a$$ up on the international stage.

And no I’m not saying marrying under age is acceptable or anything.
 
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Ssan

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No one is asking Pakistan to become a secular state. However, it must be highlighted that religion as the sole pillar of an identity is not feasible, especially in these times.

What I'm saying is not a new idea, in fact, it predates the notion of Pakistan as some state created solely for religion and only having religion as it's unifying factor.

What Pakistanis deliberately are not taught is that the idea of Pakistan far predates the All-India Muslim League (whom initially ridiculed the concept) and instead has it's origins in the student organizations of Bazm-i-Shibli (founded in 1915) and later the Pakistan National Liberation Movement (1930) founded by 4 Punjabi and Pashtun students headed by Choudary Rehmat Ali, in fact, if Rehmat Ali's claim that his ideas were passed onto him by his father is to be believed, then the idea of Pakistan may have been floating around as early as the 1880's, mere decades after the British conquest of modern-day Pakistan.

These groups were created as a pushback to what they perceived as a British attempt to "Indianize" their distinct 'nations':

----

"India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; nor the home of one single nation. It is, in fact, the designation of a State created by the British for the first time in history. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of the Indian nation at any period of its history, but who have, on the contrary, from the dawn of history till the advent of the British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own". ~ Now or Never, 1933

"The congress had designated all British possessions in South Asia as India denied to the non Indian nations the right to their own nationhood, and, by making pretentious claims, stamped Indian nationality on the peoples of this area." ~ "What does the Pakistan National Movement Stand For?" Pamphlet, 1930's

"That is, the statement which was to save us from national self-destruction on the altar of "Indians", safeguard our right to distinct national existence, mark the appearance of a de-Indianized Muslim country of nearly 35 million people, protect the heritage of the first three centuries of our history, inflict the first decisive defeat on the forces of "Indianism", and last, but by no means least, alter forever the course of the Millat, of Dinia (South Asia), and, I dare say, of Asia." ~ Ch, Millet and the Mission, 1930's

This mistake has certainly cost us dear. It has compromised our nationality and labelled us all as "Indian". I say this, not because there is anything wrong with the word "India" which, in itself, is perhaps as respectable as any other name; but because we are not "Indian" and, therefore, for us to style ourselves or our institutions "Indian", is nothing but an act of renegation. ~ Ch, The Menace of Indianism, 1930's

----


In response, they sought the independence of their 'homeland': Pakistan, a federation of 5 regions that were distinct from India but close enough to each other to constitute a single nation.

An important note here is that they saw religion as one of three (not the sole) grounds for the basis of the independence of Pakistan:

"I am enclosing herewith an appeal on behalf of the thirty million Muslims of PAKISTAN, who live in the five Northern Units of India--Punjab, North-West Frontier (Afghan) Province, Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan. It embodies their demand for the recognition of their national status, as distinct from the other inhabitants of India, by the grant to Pakistan of a separate Federal Constitution on religious, social and historical grounds." ~ Pakistan Declaration, 1933

In their literature, they saw Pakistan as a nation that had always existed, but had went through different names in history. They also highlighted Pakistan's connection to it's ancient heritage, a notion that many members here mock. This is remarkable considering that this was from the early 1900's.

"It will therefore be seen that Pakistan is one of the most ancient and illustrious countries of the Orient. Not only that. It is the only nation in the world which in the antiquity of its legend and lore, as in the character of its history and hopes, compares with Iraq and Egypt -the countries which are known as the cradle of the achievements of Mankind." ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"It must be remembered that, in different periods of its life, Pakistan has had different names -names whose very variety epitomizes its past history, just as its present name symbolizes its present position, its future prospects, and its ultimate destiny in the world" ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"The Mihran, also known as the Indus, is the longest, the greatest, and the most truly national river of Pakistan, and its course lies through most of the provinces of the country" ~ Ch, Physical Features

"In their origin the Paks belong to the stock from which sprang those gifted tribes of the pre-historic times who created and developed the oldest civilization of the Mihran Valley and, for that matter, of the world." Ch, Ethnical Stocks

"Pakistan, as already mentioned, was one of the three civilized regions of the globe~the other two being Iraq and Egypt. This fact stands out prominently against the dim hack-ground of that still ill-defined period in the growth of the human race. It shows that, in pre-history, Pakistan was one of the lands where civilization was born; where Man made his first attempts at courting Nature for his subsistence; and where he achieved his first successes in his elemental struggle for life." ~ Ch, National Story


That is not to say that they were not steeped in religious nationalism like other groups of their time. For example, they demanded independence for Indian and Bengali Muslims, but in their own separate nations (Osmanistan and Bangistan) instead of having them migrate to Pakistan, the movement also began embracing a more Pan-Islamic ideology towards the end.

The reason why we're not taught about them is because they became fierce opponents of the All-India Muslim League whom they accused of hijacking the Pakistan Movement. They claimed that true independence was not achieved and that they would fight on. This led to an eventual crackdown where the PNLM was axed and its members forced into exile, along with the seizure of their assets. All footprints of the movement was scrubbed and their leader; Rehmat Ali would die in exile, penniless.

@Indus Pakistan @Sainthood 101 @jus_chillin
I do not know about Rehmat Ali. I do know that the Pakistan that was formed was formed on very grand ideas of Islamic democracy- if it did not, it would have never accepted the territory of east bengal or the millions of immigrants. How can one justify Allama Iqbal himself inviting Leopold Weiss to Pakistan to represent Pakistan if not in service of a grand idea of what a modern Muslims state could look like.
 

Sainthood 101

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No one is asking Pakistan to become a secular state. However, it must be highlighted that religion as the sole pillar of an identity is not feasible, especially in these times.

What I'm saying is not a new idea, in fact, it predates the notion of Pakistan as some state created solely for religion and only having religion as it's unifying factor.

What Pakistanis deliberately are not taught is that the idea of Pakistan far predates the All-India Muslim League (whom initially ridiculed the concept) and instead has it's origins in the student organizations of Bazm-i-Shibli (founded in 1915) and later the Pakistan National Liberation Movement (1930) founded by 4 Punjabi and Pashtun students headed by Choudary Rehmat Ali, in fact, if Rehmat Ali's claim that his ideas were passed onto him by his father is to be believed, then the idea of Pakistan may have been floating around as early as the 1880's, mere decades after the British conquest of modern-day Pakistan.

These groups were created as a pushback to what they perceived as a British attempt to "Indianize" their distinct 'nations':

----

"India, constituted as it is at the present moment, is not the name of one single country; nor the home of one single nation. It is, in fact, the designation of a State created by the British for the first time in history. It includes peoples who have never previously formed part of the Indian nation at any period of its history, but who have, on the contrary, from the dawn of history till the advent of the British, possessed and retained distinct nationalities of their own". ~ Now or Never, 1933

"The congress had designated all British possessions in South Asia as India denied to the non Indian nations the right to their own nationhood, and, by making pretentious claims, stamped Indian nationality on the peoples of this area." ~ "What does the Pakistan National Movement Stand For?" Pamphlet, 1930's

"That is, the statement which was to save us from national self-destruction on the altar of "Indians", safeguard our right to distinct national existence, mark the appearance of a de-Indianized Muslim country of nearly 35 million people, protect the heritage of the first three centuries of our history, inflict the first decisive defeat on the forces of "Indianism", and last, but by no means least, alter forever the course of the Millat, of Dinia (South Asia), and, I dare say, of Asia." ~ Ch, Millet and the Mission, 1930's

This mistake has certainly cost us dear. It has compromised our nationality and labelled us all as "Indian". I say this, not because there is anything wrong with the word "India" which, in itself, is perhaps as respectable as any other name; but because we are not "Indian" and, therefore, for us to style ourselves or our institutions "Indian", is nothing but an act of renegation. ~ Ch, The Menace of Indianism, 1930's

----


In response, they sought the independence of their 'homeland': Pakistan, a federation of 5 regions that were distinct from India but close enough to each other to constitute a single nation.

An important note here is that they saw religion as one of three (not the sole) grounds for the basis of the independence of Pakistan:

"I am enclosing herewith an appeal on behalf of the thirty million Muslims of PAKISTAN, who live in the five Northern Units of India--Punjab, North-West Frontier (Afghan) Province, Kashmir, Sind, and Baluchistan. It embodies their demand for the recognition of their national status, as distinct from the other inhabitants of India, by the grant to Pakistan of a separate Federal Constitution on religious, social and historical grounds." ~ Pakistan Declaration, 1933

In their literature, they saw Pakistan as a nation that had always existed, but had went through different names in history. They also highlighted Pakistan's connection to it's ancient heritage, a notion that many members here mock. This is remarkable considering that this was from the early 1900's.

"It will therefore be seen that Pakistan is one of the most ancient and illustrious countries of the Orient. Not only that. It is the only nation in the world which in the antiquity of its legend and lore, as in the character of its history and hopes, compares with Iraq and Egypt -the countries which are known as the cradle of the achievements of Mankind." ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"It must be remembered that, in different periods of its life, Pakistan has had different names -names whose very variety epitomizes its past history, just as its present name symbolizes its present position, its future prospects, and its ultimate destiny in the world" ~ Fatherland of the Pak Nation

"The Mihran, also known as the Indus, is the longest, the greatest, and the most truly national river of Pakistan, and its course lies through most of the provinces of the country" ~ Ch, Physical Features

"In their origin the Paks belong to the stock from which sprang those gifted tribes of the pre-historic times who created and developed the oldest civilization of the Mihran Valley and, for that matter, of the world." Ch, Ethnical Stocks

"Pakistan, as already mentioned, was one of the three civilized regions of the globe~the other two being Iraq and Egypt. This fact stands out prominently against the dim hack-ground of that still ill-defined period in the growth of the human race. It shows that, in pre-history, Pakistan was one of the lands where civilization was born; where Man made his first attempts at courting Nature for his subsistence; and where he achieved his first successes in his elemental struggle for life." ~ Ch, National Story


That is not to say that they were not steeped in religious nationalism like other groups of their time. For example, they demanded independence for Indian and Bengali Muslims, but in their own separate nations (Osmanistan and Bangistan) instead of having them migrate to Pakistan, the movement also began embracing a more Pan-Islamic ideology towards the end.

The reason why we're not taught about them is because they became fierce opponents of the All-India Muslim League whom they accused of hijacking the Pakistan Movement. They claimed that true independence was not achieved and that they would fight on. This led to an eventual crackdown where the PNLM was axed and its members forced into exile, along with the seizure of their assets. All footprints of the movement was scrubbed and their leader; Rehmat Ali would die in exile, penniless.

@Indus Pakistan @Sainthood 101 @jus_chillin
to win Muslim votes from non Pakistani Muslims
they probably sold the idea to the public as more pan-Islamist compared to what it truly was at least in its earliest form
@Ssan

Maybe what he is saying, in the end, is - the Pakistan movement was hijacked midway by all-India movement which had a different objective than the Pakistan movement because they had to win votes to create Pakistan thus their campaign strategy changed - They were Islamists at heart but there was more to it than that
 
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Stallion29

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Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani. When you tell people you are pakistani you get labelled negatively. No reason trying to defend. Your prents motherland. Its a lost cause. There was some pride when imran khan was PM. Now its back to some demented creepy alcoholic uncle running the country. Pakistani allowed this to happen, let them suffer the consequences. I will sit back and watch the circus. Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.
 

PakistaniJunior

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Its better for oversease pakistanis to just avoid telling people or deny being pakistani. When you tell people you are pakistani you get labelled negatively. No reason trying to defend. Your prents motherland. Its a lost cause. There was some pride when imran khan was PM. Now its back to some demented creepy alcoholic uncle running the country. Pakistani allowed this to happen, let them suffer the consequences. I will sit back and watch the circus. Btw im an american pakistani- just embarrassed i have some genetic similarity to those people there.
Lol you have an inferiority complex. I would never denounce my Pakistani identity due to matters like this. People like you, who are so quick to disregard your entire heritage, never deserved it in the first place. So go on ahead with this stupidity, because people don't respect those who don't respect themselves anyway.
 

sparten

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One amazing positive that has come out of this is that maybe Pakistanis can wake up from their delusions of the grandeur Pak-Turk relations and the supposed immense mutual love. As well as this delusion that Turkey is some Islamic utopia full of practicing Muslims.

It's as if people cannot differentiate between national allies, and people-people relationships.

I'm not exactly sure where these beliefs stemmed from and became so wide spread, perhaps it's the dramas on national television, or perhaps the political statements made.

But one thing is certain, there is something seriously wrong with the average Pakistani mindset, perhaps a sense of insecurity so ride off every other country, or perhaps an identity crisis.
Are you joking Eng;lishman?
Pakistani know full well what Turks are. Our admiration for Turkey isn't based on them being some "Islamic utopia"
 

ahaider97

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other nations hating on you is good for identity. America started out as "we're not Brittain", 90% of Canadian identity is "we're not America", much of Pakistan is "we're not India". that the Turks are hating on Pakistanis and not some variety of "Indian Muslims" is already a victory, and that it has caused an increase in defensive pro-Pakistan nationalist posturing is another.
As we say in Urdu badnam jo honge tou kia naam na ho ga
 

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