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Pakistan's National Identity, My thoughts and opinions on Pakistan's problems.

PakistaniJunior

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Oct 11, 2016
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After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.

Turkish Situation:

With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.

The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.

The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.

These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.

Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.

Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:

Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.

Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?

We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.

All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.

My Opinion:

I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.



These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I
 
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AgnosticIndian

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other nations hating on you is good for identity. America started out as "we're not Brittain", 90% of Canadian identity is "we're not America", much of Pakistan is "we're not India". that the Turks are hating on Pakistanis and not some variety of "Indian Muslims" is already a victory, and that it has caused an increase in defensive pro-Pakistan nationalist posturing is another.
 

Lincoln

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Sep 2, 2018
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other nations hating on you is good for identity. America started out as "we're not Brittain", 90% of Canadian identity is "we're not America", much of Pakistan is "we're not India". that the Turks are hating on Pakistanis and not some variety of "Indian Muslims" is already a victory, and that it has caused an increase in defensive pro-Pakistan nationalist posturing is another.

That's true, it will help the religious realize that there is no such union or harmony based on religion anymore and that will fuel nationalist feelings. But I also agree with OP in that Pakistanis have very unreasonable expectations from anyone who's a Muslim, we can't mind our own business.

The Muslim world is, ironically, becoming more and more racist and intolerant, Pakistan is probably one of the least racist nations in the world towards any race or religion, the intolerance only derives from religious differences. The faster we move towards Nationalism, the faster we will become more tolerant and more self centered, till then we will always be more occupied with what's happening elsewhere in regards to Islam rather than the issues we face domestically.
 

Lincoln

SENIOR MEMBER
Sep 2, 2018
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After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.

Turkish Situation:

With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.

The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.

The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.

These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.

Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.

Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:

Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.

Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?

We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.

All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.

My Opinion:

I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.



These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I

Pak-Turk relations had a solid basis stemmed in mutual support on international issues. The culture clash is what ruined it. These may reflect in diplomatic relations if the opposition parties who are riding in and cashing on these racist sentiments come to power, unless the Turkish military has a say otherwise during their tenure (due to the Pakistan Army maintaining great military-to-military relations; I will give them that, they know diplomacy). I think to blame for this culture clash would be Erdoğan for his failed policies in regards to refugees, immigrants and illegals, and Imran Khan's on showcasing Turkish dramas.

Either way it doesn't excuse their racist tendencies, and frankly we should stop being concerned with it. Ignore it, their internal grievences due to inflation and such are probably amplifying it. We have bigger issues to deal with as a nation and Turkey is a very minor, or a non existent part of it. I'm sure the Embassy in Turkey will handle it well, they're very competent individuals (if not one of the most in Pakistan's foreign mission) and I have no doubt that the recent tweet by the Turkish police (regarding fake accounts originating from Hindustan) reflects that.
 

One_Nation

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Sep 3, 2021
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After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.

Turkish Situation:

With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.

The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.

The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.

These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.

Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.

Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:

Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.

Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?

We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.

All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.

My Opinion:

I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.



These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I
People to people relation between Pakistan and Turkey are non-existent other than our mostly illegal migrants from Pakistan there. Turkeys rarely come to Pakistan.
All that needs to be done is Pakistan to crack down on human smuggling networks and Turkeys to stop the inflow at their border and deport whoever lands there straight away.

You juveniles should stop stressing about it so much. This problem is just a small symptom of bigger problems at home that need attention.
 

PakistaniJunior

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Pak-Turk relations had a solid basis stemmed in mutual support on international issues. The culture clash is what ruined it. These may reflect in diplomatic relations if the opposition parties who are riding in and cashing on these racist sentiments come to power, unless the Turkish military has a say otherwise during their tenure (due to the Pakistan Army maintaining great military-to-military relations; I will give them that, they know diplomacy). I think to blame for this culture clash would be Erdoğan for his failed policies in regards to refugees, immigrants and illegals, and Imran Khan's on showcasing Turkish dramas.

Either way it doesn't excuse their racist tendencies, and frankly we should stop being concerned with it. Ignore it, their internal grievences due to inflation and such are probably amplifying it. We have bigger issues to deal with as a nation and Turkey is a very minor, or a non existent part of it. I'm sure the Embassy in Turkey will handle it well, they're very competent individuals (if not one of the most in Pakistan's foreign mission) and I have no doubt that the recent tweet by the Turkish police (regarding fake accounts originating from Hindustan) reflects that.

Thank you for your response. Honestly, i'm not that bothered by it. I knew long ago that the mindsets of the Turks and Pakistanis were to clash someday. I just think this is a good time as any to do some self-reflection, for Pakistanis who may have been shocked or hurt. In a way, i think it may prove to be a blessing in disguise because i was getting tired of this.

Also, for your first paragraph. I agree with that, and that has always been my perspective with regards to Pak-Turk relations since the beginning. Unfortunately for the recent surge of awareness amongst Pakistanis, their basis of liking Turkey is heavily related to an Empire they glorified within their minds. I agree, Erdogan has f#cked up big time , but the blame for this false perceptions created amongst Pakistanis lies with Imran Khan. He should've realized that our people are too immature to absorb such media in the way he had wanted them to.

He amplified the little sparks of admiration for Turkish People and Culture people had, and blew it into something way more. This is not how you build mutually-respectful people-to-people relationships. The uneducated amongst us now get shocked with the cultural clashes, their whole reason for "liking" Turkey is shaken up, and then they act in a shameless way which humiliates the rest of us.
 

Edevelop

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Pakistanis should mind their own business. Its not our concern what Turkish women wear, how an average man practice their beliefs. Their country, their right! Stay the F out please!

Also what did you expect when you go to their lands illegally?
 

Rafi

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People to people relation between Pakistan and Turkey are non-existent other than our mostly illegal migrants from Pakistan there. Turkeys rarely come to Pakistan.
All that needs to be done is Pakistan to crack down on human smuggling networks and Turkeys to stop the inflow at their border and deport whoever lands there straight away.

You juveniles should stop stressing about it so much. This problem is just a small symptom of bigger problems at home that need attention.

BS, Pak Turk relations are fine, people need to grow the fck up, get your head out of twitter and other brain rot social media. And you will be fine.
 

PAKISTANFOREVER

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After the recent surge in anti-pakistan posts from Turkish Social Media, i've been wanting to pen down some of my own opinions and thoughts regarding the situation, as well as to address some issues i've had with Pakistan's "perceived" identity. As our current system is busy pulling each other's legs at the moment, it has done an extremely poor job with regards to building the nation's national conscience as well its national identity.

Turkish Situation:

With regards to the recent deteriorating Pak-Turk people-to-people relations, i've observed (or predicted) long ago that our current relations were unsustainable. I won't comment much on what the Turks have done wrong, Racism is bad, and painting an entire nation with a single brush is not a smart move. But that is not my business or responsibility. I guess, my concern is with what the Pakistani side has done wrong. Please be mindful that i am by no means an expert, i am just expressing my opinions here. Feel free to add to the discussion if you must.

The current generation in Turkey is steadily moving towards irreligiousness and other forms of belief deviating from Islamic beliefs. Whereas Pakistanis are still knee-deep into their Islamic Identity. I'm not saying it's wrong to be Islamic, you ARE a muslim after all. But if you cannot respect others for thinking differently from yourself, you're going to ruin relations with them. Think of the Chinese in this regard, they are majorly non-muslims and most Pakistanis are aware of that; so we don't have such "expectations" from them. We want to get along with them even if they are non-muslims if there is mutual respect. Why not adopt the same demeanor with regards to Turks? (Although i don't think there's much left to salvage from the current situation. I honestly don't think things will recover between the two populace now that the blatant racism and witch-hunting on social media has started. But it IS a demeanor i think Pakistanis should adopt with all people around the world.

The Next aspect i would like to comment on is that, i don't think there is much solid basis on the formation of Pak-Turk relations in the past. I think i can now understand Jinnah's sentiments with regards to the Khilafet movement. There has always been some sort of propaganda done in swaying the opinions of South Asian muslims in favor of the Ottoman Empire in the past. Even when said Empire had been used by the British to make the South Asian Muslims more "complacent" with their colonizers. It was never really a two-way thing between Turks and Pakistanis as we had thought. Even when they got the support from South Asian Muslims, the so-called "Caliphate" they were trying to save, was still abolished by a Turk himself, and this person is a Turk the Turkish people hold in very high regard, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk. Now, i can understand why Turks like him, he saved his country. But i can also understand why Pakistanis don't respect him much, dudes you just got duped and used. What'd you expect? And now, badmouthing this public figure won't really do you much good either.

These relation seems to be akin to walking on egg shells in my opinion.

Similarly, Pakistanis need to better educate themselves on other people's sentiments and what their opinions are, in order to put yourself into better perspective, as to where you stand within such contexts. Erdogan is severely disliked in his country, just because he initiated some "muh bruhder fellow muslim country" bravado with Pak, doesn't make him worthy of all that respect. You're only further ruining your image by liking a public figure disliked within his own country. Turkish foreign Policy has always been to maintain friendly relations with Pakistan. Erdogan wasn't the first person and maybe, he won't be the last. Learn to read the room. But at the same time? why do you guys even bother with Turkey when it's not that mutual? The whole "Ertugrul" saga had me worried for this very reason, it has created some false perceptions of Turkish people amongst uneducated people in Pakistan. Maybe this is a blessing in disguise, who knows.

Pakistanis and Pan-Islamism:

Now, I'm going to talk about the Pan-Islamic attitude found within Pakistan's populace. We all know that Pakistan's identity is heavily influenced by muslim struggles in pre-partitioned subcontinent. However, i don't really think Pakistan is suppose to be the "Thekedar of Islam". There is a difference between a Nation created FOR muslim people as a refuge from oppression and a Nation created solely for Islam. Now, i won't argue what person said whatever in all those years ago, what Quaid said what the Ulema said. Think about it yourself, do you think Pakistanis even know what True Islam is? With the different interpretations of events and hadiths, don't you think people are going to start fighting on whose "Islam" is the correct one and whose is not? People from other nations don't have a Pan-Islamic attitude, so it would be wrong to force that down their throats. But at the same time, i don't think Pan-Islamism will work well within Pakistan either. I think it would give rise to religious intolerance, i already fear for non-muslims in my country. But if people tried to enforce their "version" of Islam on others, Muslims of this country will start to fight with each other too.

Also, this is also not limited to sects. In Pakistan, we have many "people" who try to use religion as a means to gain authority and power over the uneducated. It is these people i hate the most, they are ruining my people and making the innocent, intolerant and radical. And they know very well that they are fraudsters. If these people try to convince people that their version of "Islam" is the true one, and all others are Kafirs, won't that lead to bloodbath?

We can already see what's happening to our minorities. This type of bloodshed is ALREADY occurring within Pakistan. It honestly, fills me up with so much rage, how these people use religion to justify their wrong-doings. They end up ruining the image of Islam.

All of this has convinced me that religion should NOT be mixed in Politics in a country such as Pakistan. We aren't true muslims , frankly, we're the farthest thing from it when we try to pass off oppressive cultural norms as "Islam". So, unless Pakistanis turn into the perfect muslims overnight, i am against using Islam/Religion in politics in any shape or form. There's also another thing which has bothered me is that, These people aren't true believers, they don't fear any sort of Islamic punishments. They don't care about it. So why do you expect such people to adhere to Islamic principles correctly when they have no fear of God? It simply does not feel sustainable.

My Opinion:

I am of the opinion that, Pakistanis should overcome any prejudices we may have with one another, with regards to ethnicity, religion, or whatever else there is that we have a difference with. The reason why you are getting disrespected by foreigners today is because you lack respect for yourselves. You need to stop trying to make others like you, when you need to start liking your own people. I do not hate any type of Pakistani, whether they are from a different religion or race. They're my people and i should look out for them regardless. So please, we need to adopt this attitude with one another and stop with the leg-pullings. Be happier for the success of each other, and further encourage one another to become better and more successful. We need to become more tolerant to the differences of other's opinions'. I'm not sure if this makes me a nationalist, but i really don't give a f#ck about any other people other than my own. And i give them more priority over others. Learn your history well, and learn more about each other. Be more embracing and nice. It's not an easy thing to fight against yourself, but it needs to be done if we want our situation to improve . We also desperately need to improve our morals, and stop being so oppressive. I would've expanded on this section more but this post is already very lengthy and i'm tired of writing it.



These are my thoughts, feel free to add to the discussion if you want. I just wanted to rant and collect my thoughts. All of this sucks but eh, lets hope this is for the better. I want my countrymen to be better than this. May i add that i am indeed a part of the youth of this country and i am trying my best to spread such views with my peers. But Pakistan being such a intolerant place, especially in Public Places, you can't really speak in fear of someone losing their marbles and doing something to you :I

The BIGGEST fallacy in Pakistani identity is to assume that non-Pakistani Muslims view Islam and Islamic unity/the Ummah with the same intense enthusiasm that Pakistani Muslims do. They don't. The Arabs/Palestinians, Iranians, Turks, Afghans, Somalians etc DON'T. They are all HIGHLY nationalistic whereas Pakistanis by and large are not. Pakistanis don't understand or realize this. The Turks are fast becoming a developed, high-tech advanced society with a booming economy. Also, the Turks are White. They want deeper ties and relations with Europe/the West. That is where Turks especially the younger ones see their future with. Why would they want anything to do with Pakistan and Pakistanis when we are one of the poorest countries in the world and have NO racial or cultural ties to Turkey? Pakistanis need to understand this reality.
 

Rafi

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Devoid of any IQ then wonder why you are humiliated everywhere.

"Everywhere", cover up! - your india is showing.

The BIGGEST fallacy in Pakistani identity is to assume that non-Pakistani Muslims view Islam and Islamic unity/the Ummah with the same intense enthusiasm that Pakistani Muslims do. They don't. The Arabs/Palestinians, Iranians, Turks, Afghans, Somalians etc DON'T. They are all HIGHLY nationalistic. Pakistanis don't understand or realize this. The Turks are fast becoming a developed, high-tech advanced society with a booming economy. Also, the Turks are White. They want deeper ties and relations with Europe/the West. That is where Turks especially the younger ones see their future with. Why would they want anything to do with Pakistan and Pakistanis when we are one of the poorest countries in the world and have NO racial or cultural ties to Turkey? Pakistanis need to understand this reality.

LoL we have friendship with Turkey that is also secular. Don't need to overstate or understate relations with Turkey, neither are the important as some perceive neither are they insignificant
 

PAKISTANFOREVER

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"Everywhere", cover up! - your india is showing.



LoL we have friendship with Turkey that is also secular. Don't need to overstate or understate relations with Turkey, neither are the important as some perceive neither are they insignificant

Fair point but why do so man Pakistanis always assume that non-Pakistani Muslim share the same enthusiasm for Islam and the Ummah when they all do not? It makes Pakistanis look retarded and undignified who are looking for acceptance and validation from non-Pakistanis......... :disagree:
 

One_Nation

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"Everywhere", cover up! - your india is showing.



LoL we have friendship with Turkey that is also secular. Don't need to overstate or understate relations with Turkey, neither are the important as some perceive neither are they insignificant
Just say india when nothing else works. My bad I shouldnt have replied to a low life in the first place.
 

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