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Pakistan's long-term national security: insurgencies and national identity.

ThunderCat

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Take for example greece which is proudly christian yet proud of its ancient hellenic culture or egypt which is proudly muslim yet also aware of its pharoic past? It would require introspection and education of vedic/hindu roots but somewhere we can even work with india on.

No because our Vedic roots are mostly ours, not India's. Should Greeks work with Italians when celebrating their Hellenic history?

Keep in mind ancient Romans had equivalents for Greek deities, but Greek heritage is Greek.
 

ThunderCat

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I want a well developed, clean and secular Pakistan with no strange looking people on the streets, no one starting people out, no loitering. No blasphemy laws and no judgement.

I want developed city centres that look aesthetic and has more to offer than just food. I want the environment safe enough for kids to be able to get the bus and go to an arcade or eat some food without their parents worrying.

A based but secular Pakistan. Like Turkey. I am not talking crude vulgar India so get that image out of your head. I think Pakistanis think this is what the other side looks like because your point of reference is India over there.

Turkey is not secular. It never was. Religion dominated the country's policies since it's formation.

You won't get cleanness and eradicate poverty without eradicating overpopulation. That is the number one danger.
 

Erieye

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Beautiful write up, I think it summed up a lot of structural issues Pakistan needs to adress to truly change its trajectory into a positive direction.

Pakistan requires the competency level and motivation that the Israelis have, in all honesty the current leadership is shameful. Weak, inadequate, confused, incompetent "men" who are cowards. We need intellligent and competent nationalist leaders to take control who don't have an inferiority complex to the westerners. Who are proud of being Pakistani.

Honestly Imran Khan although he may not be too competent, he represented the common people, represented what a Pakistani should be like. His lack of inferiority complex and love and desire to see Pakistan succeed is a big reason for why he was loved. In some essence he reminds me of a modern day Zia!
 

Bleek

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Beautiful write up, I think it summed up a lot of structural issues Pakistan needs to adress to truly change its trajectory into a positive direction.

Pakistan requires the competency level and motivation that the Israelis have, in all honesty the current leadership is shameful. Weak, inadequate, confused, incompetent "men" who are cowards. We need intellligent and competent nationalist leaders to take control who don't have an inferiority complex to the westerners. Who are proud of being Pakistani.

Honestly Imran Khan although he may not be too competent, he represented the common people, represented what a Pakistani should be like. His lack of inferiority complex and love and desire to see Pakistan succeed is a big reason for why he was loved. In some essence he reminds me of a modern day Zia!
Yes, ultimately the morale of the nation is dependent on how capable it's leaders are and how fierce they are.

Corrupt leaders unwanted leaders will greatly lower the morale.

And trying to be something you and society is not (white liberal kaffirs) will create an identity crisis and distort your new nation's foundation.

Both might seem trivial on the micro-level but have consequences at the macro-level.
 
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TNT

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I agree with you strongly here and I've also heard many rumours about them and their children. In the past it wasn't like this, our leaders were strong in their values and this was recognised by everyone. But the recent crop are beghairats, almost have inferiority complexes with their identity and want to become cheap copies of the white man from lifestyle to clothing, etc.

They need to understand that Pakistan's society/identity by it's foundation is very different to this, we never strived to create a liberal secular Pakistan to begin with and nor do majority of people support it. This means their actions are cause of destabilisation at the very base.

When do u think this change started happening? I think it all started with the US war on terror in Musharraf time. The US enhanced its cooperation, musharaf allowed them alot of freedom inside Pakistan and they opened wide the Pakistani state power structure. They found how corrupt it is and they could manipulate it. They installed and bought ppl in middle power n also helped them ascend higher ranks. Some ppl like musharaf but its him actually allowing these seeds to be planted. Its also because of all our society have become corrupt and greedy, heck the mullahs are the biggest hypocrites.
 

Bleek

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When do u think this change started happening? I think it all started with the US war on terror in Musharraf time. The US enhanced its cooperation, musharaf allowed them alot of freedom inside Pakistan and they opened wide the Pakistani state power structure. They found how corrupt it is and they could manipulate it. They installed and bought ppl in middle power n also helped them ascend higher ranks. Some ppl like musharaf but its him actually allowing these seeds to be planted. Its also because of all our society have become corrupt and greedy, heck the mullahs are the biggest hypocrites.
I think the same - around Musharraf's time when there was war hysteria regarding Pakistan they focused a lot of their efforts in increasing their foothold and control in Pakistan.

We need to indigenise key technologies like ICBM, etc, and work to dismantle the network they've created. All extreme liberal corrupt haram khors and agents need to be removed.
 
Nov 18, 2014
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100% agree with this. Fix the economy, if everyone has a job, has access to a future and aspirations - watch sect, ethnicity etc become something for paperwork only.

There is a contention that, altruistic, meritorious and truly forward looking individuals will look after the pack above and beyond their near and immediate ... their new tribe perhaps identity. But as we know people all too easily switch these ... blood relations remain but loyalties in every other setting change as needed.
People happily become mercenaries and take a bullet for a coin!
East India Company... Company hired locals to take the bullet and paid them in their own coin, quite literally! Local taxes paid native foot soldiers and today they travel the distance to get foreign identities.
So, here is the deal... mercenaries will only jump the hoops for the highest bidder and keep jumping ship!
But people take care of their own... clean their own homes and feed themselves... isn't that just nature? Do you need to involve someone to fix the affairs of someone, who knows and does what it takes to survive?
Question is how much independence/freedom you avail a people to do their own thing and fix their own problems?... they wouldn't until it falls on them!
As colonial subjects, these questions and their answers were and have been dished out ...
the state does, subjects don't!
And in the west where these were devised a chronological story and it's pattern was laid out ... so who gets to do what and when, redundancies set and rules crafted according to local customs.
Who decided that for the rest of the world?
Why they get to have the same weekly pattern or corporate work week?
Why their day starts at 7, 8 or 9 am or 8 hour work day and not at Fajr in case of Muslims? These inconsistencies laid as law on foreign lands with no connection or meaning just makes meandering bots not able to think or act for themselves ...

But people haven't lost their kin, tribes or nations... they've been deprived of them for a coin whose fountainhead lies elsewhere able to control every act in fact coerce every thought. They will manage their own economy, grow or build whatever needed once grounded in their native REALITY!

WOULD YOU HELP EMPOWER THEM?
 
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The malfunction is inherent to plug and play application of western or specifically British discourse in it's colonies!
Who cleans the streets?
Who is responsible for a malnourished, half naked child on a dump of refuse collecting discarded apparel, metal or even food? A reflection of society, application of plug and play, non existent and concerned representation, his own folks inability to control their affairs?

What?
Knee-jerk response would be overpopulation or macroeconomic failure.

Call it what it is and take control! Drop the act and stand up... Don't wait for your next command!
Success shouldn't be defined nor seen in meaningless GDP figures!
As long as your(your people's) affairs are tidy... you're good ... don't fall for pity or optics!
 
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ThunderCat

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I don't think many people in Pakistan want it to be secular. You have been in the West and think it is like U.K. changing Prime Ministers. Turkey went through secularization mainly because it is culturally European. Besides European nations, there is no Muslim majority secular state. That is not an accident.

What "secularization?" They adopted law after law restricting non-Muslims from basic rights such as owning property, bank accounts, taxing them to death.

In fact in terms of rights of religious minorities, Pakistan wins over out of the two. Have you even read of the atrocities that the "secular Attaturk" orchestrated?

Not blaming all Turks or even the majority, but this "secularism" myth has been so much exaggerated to the point of fiction becoming history.

Even their own scholars have documented this in articles & research papers. They argue it contradicts the definition of secularism.

Also aside from the urban elite class, what other segments of Turkish society are "culturally European?"
 

epebble

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What "secularization?" They adopted law after law restricting non-Muslims from basic rights such as owning property, bank accounts, taxing them to death.

In fact in terms of rights of religious minorities, Pakistan wins over out of the two. Have you even read of the atrocities that the "secular Attaturk" orchestrated?

Not blaming all Turks or even the majority, but this "secularism" myth has been so much exaggerated to the point of fiction becoming history.

Even their own scholars have documented this in articles & research papers. They argue it contradicts the definition of secularism.

Also aside from the urban elite class, what other segments of Turkish society are "culturally European?"
Thank you. I know there are some skeletons in the cupboard of Turkey but was not aware of restrictions on non-Muslim citizens.
 

ThunderCat

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Thank you. I know there are some skeletons in the cupboard of Turkey but was not aware of restrictions on non-Muslim citizens.

About my last line, we can argue that some aspects of Turkish culture overlap with South Europe such as Greece and general Mediterranean.

In that sense there is a strong similarity to Europe. But there is also similarity to Egypt and Iran as well.

Their culture can be compared to Mediterranean countries most of all. Mainly Southern Europe, the Levant & North Africa.
 

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