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Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

truthseeker2010

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Not really, it’s not just the quantity here they matters, it’s also the quality. Most of not all the Indian guns are 152MM or greater in caliber with modern FCS, ammo and other systems. And over 40% or PAs towed guns are 120MM caliber or below with no modern FCS or ammo. Their 2300 guns are 2300 guns. Our 2000 guns are like 1100 large caliber guns of which a fraction are actually modern.


I’m pretty sure ToT is included with SH15, although no confirmation yet. HIT already makes good artillery barrels, it’s the rest of the system they’re making for the first time, but the barrel is the hardest part.

I get the quality part, but you still need to fill the TOE given that IA is infantry heavy so each div has arty bde. IA has 37 div and each with 54 guns are at least 2000 guns without reserves. The independent brigades and arty divs (3) are separate.
 

iLION12345_1

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We didn't went for tracked one because right now we were looking for wheeled ones. Right now we have enough of M-109. We would upgrade them further and when time will come we would look for tracked ones also. Turkey and China will be main contenders in that one also. Right now PA was looking for wheeled ones and we got them now. As for towed that is also under works.
Yeah, but I’d personally prefer if they went ahead and replaced the M109s altogether, they can only be upgraded so much, especially without it US help. Though with the Turkish T155 there may be a venue into upgrading them further, but keep in mind, the T155 is a version of the K9 as well.
 

Zarvan

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Yeah, but I’d personally prefer if they went ahead and replaced the M109s altogether, they can only be upgraded so much, especially without it US help. Though with the Turkish T155 there may be a venue into upgrading them further, but keep in mind, the T155 is a version of the K9 as well.
Even if K9 is version of it was recently upgraded. Secondly we would get it changed according to our requirements. Finally even Chinese option have improved over the years.
 

kursed

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Yeah, but I’d personally prefer if they went ahead and replaced the M109s altogether, they can only be upgraded so much, especially without it US help. Though with the Turkish T155 there may be a venue into upgrading them further, but keep in mind, the T155 is a version of the K9 as well.
Didn't they like just received almost unused stock from Italy? Not sure the replacement will come in for a long time, or I am reading it wrong?
 

Phantom.

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Didn't they like just received almost unused stock from Italy? Not sure the replacement will come in for a long time, or I am reading it wrong?
I think what he said is that rather then just upgrading the M109s PA should just replace them when the time comes imo upgrading M109s is really not worth it unless you are going to upgrade the gun to 52Caliber which will increase the range of conventional rounds by a substantial amount but the problems like the turret design will still remain unless PA upgrades them to T-155 other chinese tracked options like the PZL-05 have semi auto loading as well i think only propellent has to be placed manually so its just better to replace them when the time comes italian M109Ls were in service since 1986 PA Probably got them at a very cheap price italians did put up another stock i wonder if PA purchased that as well.
200+ M109A2
According to Zaloga and sipri PA only got 152 M109A2s.
 

Khan vilatey

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Towed arty does have a few advantages over SP. One being weight and size, another being cost, and a third one being a lack of constraints that may come with having to design the gun carrier under the gun. Without that carriage, the guns capabilities can be greater, as they don’t have to factor in things like recoil (though modern tech has mostly covered this gap). It comes down to doctrine at the end of the day, PA prefers SPs over Towed, IA prefers Towed over SP. While this does allow IA to have a larger lead in Towed arty than we do in SP, I do think our strategy is more superior and forward thinking as more modern SP guns are starting to cover the demerits of the older ones over towed arty, doubly so in the case of wheeled SPs.


Also note; well trained towed artillery crew can be just as mobile over most terrains as SP arty. That’s where the towing vehicles come into play. Shoot and scoot is still fully applicable :)


Yes, I’m sure, it has a semi-automatic loader and not a fully automatic one unlike most Wheeled SP guns. You can see the large box on the back when it’s present.
While it does make it considerably lighter (something that was important for China in regards to their terrain and airlift capability), it does reduce the ROF and remove remote firing capabilities.
Thank you for the response, I completely agree with having more SP artillery, the only down side I see for the SH-15 when compared the m109 or k9 is the ability to fire on the move.

Truck mounted sp would have to
1)get into position setup 45-60 seconds,
2) send some lucky Indian militarily personal to hell by firing around 4-6 rounds in one minute , remember these ususally operate in batteries of 4 guns so it’s around 12-16 rounds on target
3) pack up 1 minute
Drive to new location before Indian counter battery fire comes .

The sh-15 counter battery radar picks these up!

From new position on the mountain / proposed skurdu road fire another 12-16 rounds at the towed battery that had fired at the sh-15. Expediting the movements of more Indian military to hell!

Rinse repeat!

Now the most important question which Chinese artillery location radar was bought with this ?

Was it the SLC-2 or something better


K
 

iLION12345_1

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I get the quality part, but you still need to fill the TOE given that IA is infantry heavy so each div has arty bde. IA has 37 div and each with 54 guns are at least 2000 guns without reserves. The independent brigades and arty divs (3) are separate.
Well, that’s what I meant when I said the towed guns are hard to keep track of :)
You’re probably right, I don’t keep up with regiments and such.
Didn't they like just received almost unused stock from Italy? Not sure the replacement will come in for a long time, or I am reading it wrong?
They did, I didn’t mean the M109s are going to be replaced soon, I meant that PAs money would be better used replacing the guns altogether when the time comes rather than trying to upgrade them more.

I think what he said is that rather then just upgrading the M109s PA should just replace them when the time comes imo upgrading M109s is really not worth it unless you are going to upgrade the gun to 52Caliber which will increase the range of conventional rounds by a substantial amount but the problems like the turret design will still remain unless PA upgrades them to T-155 other chinese tracked options like the PZL-05 have semi auto loading as well i think only propellent has to be placed manually so its just better to replace them when the time comes italian M109Ls were in service since 1986 PA Probably got them at a very cheap price italians did put up another stock i wonder if PA purchased that as well.

According to Zaloga and sipri PA only got 152 M109A2s.
Thank you, that’s what I meant. ZALOGA and SIPRI aren’t always accurate, but even if PA only got 152 M109A2s, that’s still 115+152+ all the M109Ls put up by Italy, which was quite a substantial number (italy had 273 M109Ls in Total). We know PA got at least 150~ of them, and then more were put up for sale by Italy, but we don’t know if PA got those. I believe SIPRI may not be covering for the data of the M109A2s delivered at the end (before A5s and Ls) as aid.
 
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Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Yeah, but I’d personally prefer if they went ahead and replaced the M109s altogether, they can only be upgraded so much, especially without it US help. Though with the Turkish T155 there may be a venue into upgrading them further, but keep in mind, the T155 is a version of the K9 as well.
IIRC in the Mushy days, the Army apparently liked the PzH-2000. It's a high-cost monster, but tracked SPHs are also niche. I think the mainstay of the PA's SPH will comprise of wheeled solutions (they get the job done in 90%). However, I think a small number of high-quality tracked SPHs (likely Eastern) and, potentially, an RC turret-based SPH will come down towards the end of this decade.
 

iLION12345_1

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i don’t think you fully read what I said. The K-9 is an upgrade over the M109 with a similar design, the T-155 is just a Turkish K-9. No matter how many upgrades you give to both, they’ll still carry forward some of issues that exist due to the M109 platform. Hence they’re not the best picks for tracked artillery these days imo. The best options would be Russia (S-35), Chinese (PLZ-05, and yes, China caught up in this regard quite a while back) or European (though most of them are making new wheeled SPs and not tracked ones because of the versatility).
Even if K9 is version of it was recently upgraded. Secondly we would get it changed according to our requirements. Finally even Chinese option have improved over the years.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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i don’t think you fully read what I said. The K-9 is an upgrade over the M109 with a similar design, the T-155 is just a Turkish K-9. No matter how many upgrades you give to both, they’ll still carry forward some of issues that exist due to the M109 platform. Hence they’re not the best picks for tracked artillery these days imo. The best options would be Russia (S-35), Chinese (PLZ-05, and yes, China caught up in this regard quite a while back) or European (though most of them are making new wheeled SPs and not tracked ones because of the versatility).
There's also the gnarly option of using an IFV as the basis for a tracked SPH. The Czechs and Poles have been experimenting with quite a few designs along those lines. I'm sure the Army saw the concepts. Something akin to Singapore's Primus:

1643423052798.png
 

FuturePAF

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There's also the gnarly option of using an IFV as the basis for a tracked SPH. The Czechs and Poles have been experimenting with quite a few designs along those lines. I'm sure the Army saw the concepts. Something akin to Singapore's Primus:

View attachment 811845
Perhaps this one or a derivative

also recently saw a photo of an unnamed Chinese wheeled SPH under development that looked like that but with 6 wheels, but can’t seem to find the picture.
 
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MikeZulu

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Thank you for the response, I completely agree with having more SP artillery, the only down side I see for the SH-15 when compared the m109 or k9 is the ability to fire on the move.

Truck mounted sp would have to
1)get into position setup 45-60 seconds,
2) send some lucky Indian militarily personal to hell by firing around 4-6 rounds in one minute , remember these ususally operate in batteries of 4 guns so it’s around 12-16 rounds on target
3) pack up 1 minute
Drive to new location before Indian counter battery fire comes .

The sh-15 counter battery radar picks these up!

From new position on the mountain / proposed skurdu road fire another 12-16 rounds at the towed battery that had fired at the sh-15. Expediting the movements of more Indian military to hell!

Rinse repeat!

Now the most important question which Chinese artillery location radar was bought with this ?

Was it the SLC-2 or something better


K
Normal artillery has to operate within the framework of a battery due to technical reasons but mainly for ease of command and control whereas SH 15 is an independent and complete system in itself and it doesn't require to be in close proximity of other guns to work on the same grid and to communicate so they will not operate in traditional setup of batteries, as of now.

Plus 4 guns per battery is for heavy regiments, and 6 for field/medium.
 

Inception-06

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Normal artillery has to operate within the framework of a battery due to technical reasons but mainly for ease of command and control whereas SH 15 is an independent and complete system in itself and it doesn't require to be in close proximity of other guns to work on the same grid and to communicate so they will not operate in traditional setup of batteries, as of now.

Plus 4 guns per battery is for heavy regiments, and 6 for field/medium.

Do you knowing which year the 25 pounders we’re retired ? And which gun is that in your profile picture 105 mm US made system ?
 
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