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Pakistan's Artillery Upgrade Discussions

denel

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I asked him earlier, you can see the response :p

Apparently a fully automated loading system and remote firing capabilities.
That is what i had suspected - i had raised it long back as the chinese was seriously lacking on this capability as well as shoot/schoot capability not to mention ground clearing - it is pathetically low.
Another capability which may be missing along the lines of remote firing was the ability to receive sensor telemetry from remote stations
 

iLION12345_1

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Can you post the link
post #1689
 

iLION12345_1

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That is what i had suspected - i had raised it long back as the chinese was seriously lacking on this capability as well as shoot/schoot capability not to mention ground clearing - it is pathetically low.
Another capability which may be missing along the lines of remote firing was the ability to receive sensor telemetry from remote stations
That makes a lot of sense, might be why no system was picked in the first trials, Hopefully we see some results this Time. T5 and B-52 K2 seem like promising systems, however with Chinese ones, they’re often willing to upgrade them if they don’t get picked in the first time trials (VT-4s and F7PGs come to mind…), so those might still be on the cards too with added capability.
 

denel

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That makes a lot of sense, might be why no system was picked in the first trials, Hopefully we see some results this Time. T5 and B-52 K2 seem like promising systems, however with Chinese ones, they’re often willing to upgrade them if they don’t get picked in the first time trials (VT-4s and F7PGs come to mind…), so those might still be on the cards too with added capability.
that is what Pak does - they play others and see what they can find then go to china and get them to give something close enough.

This is what i have disliked with your officials. You cannot make up your mind and always go back to China.

No offence meant.
 

Huffal

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that is what Pak does - they play others and see what they can find then go to china and get them to give something close enough.

This is what i have disliked with your officials. You cannot make up your mind and always go back to China.

No offence meant.
Or it could be because China has been a very reliable partner over time, they upgrade their weaponry to our likings and it might actually be better than the stuff the Serbians and SA are offering.

But time will only tell.
 

denel

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Or it could be because China has been a very reliable partner over time, they upgrade their weaponry to our likings and it might actually be better than the stuff the Serbians and SA are offering.

But time will only tell.
The problem is far graver .... we have commented on it many times in other threads.
 

iLION12345_1

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that is what Pak does - they play others and see what they can find then go to china and get them to give something close enough.

This is what i have disliked with your officials. You cannot make up your mind and always go back to China.

No offence meant.
None taken at all, I understand what you mean, I’ve seen you and others talk about it before, it’s a concern I have too.

But on the other hand one has to consider some real factors that make them favor China too, like the fact that whatever China is gives is probably cheaper and easier to get with physical supply chains present and that there’s no threat of their industry not delivering, which may be an issue with a smaller supplier like Serbia or Czechia. With both my aforementioned examples China went out of their way to create something that was closer to what Pakistan needed, and both of these systems were such that Pakistani already had limited options due to its funds and foreign relations. I don’t still think it justifies the issue, it just makes the choice easier for PA (or rather China makes themselves the best option, changing their systems in ways some other countries might not, which maybe also points to a lack of confidence in China for their own systems, making them Pakistan specific because they know Pakistan will buy, while other countries try to meet a global standard) hence trapping them into this cycle of Chinese systems. (Something seen more with the PA and less with PAF/PN)

However going into the future Pakistans options are only increasing and not decreasing, and starting with this procurement I hope they see that and don’t just buy a Chinese system.
 
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Dazzler

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that is what Pak does - they play others and see what they can find then go to china and get them to give something close enough.

This is what i have disliked with your officials. You cannot make up your mind and always go back to China.

No offence meant.
T-80UD trials. Our guys were like please put this in it oh and that as well.

Ukrainians were like, Man who are these people. Peak summers touching 48 degree celcius😂

Screenshot_2021-06-18-20-41-57-42.jpg


Screenshot_2021-06-18-20-41-57-42.jpg
Screenshot_2021-06-18-20-39-59-65.jpg
 

denel

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T-80UD trials. Our guys were like please put this in it oh and that as well.

Ukrainians were like, Man who are these people. Peak summers touching 48 degree celcius😂

View attachment 754592

View attachment 754592 View attachment 754593
that is typical soviet/russian/ukranian mentality... i did not see any vodkha with them :).

No joke... out of mmabatho airbase, i was asked to help out with repairs to their comms system; i went over - of course they being far from home - had over 200 bottles of their brand.... After fixing their comms, they gave me 10 bottles... no english of course. i said nah - i dont drink. they offered to give me a joy ride on the an72. highlight of my day :). my friend who heads the airbase had told them of me as i had experience with soviet radio equipment.

morale of the story... you can take a russian/ukrainian out of their motherland but you cannot take a soviet out of them
 

denel

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None taken at all, I understand what you mean, I’ve seen you and others talk about it before, it’s a concern I have too.

But on the other hand one has to consider some real factors that make them favor China too, like the fact that whatever China is gives is probably cheaper and easier to get with physical supply chains present and that there’s no threat of their industry not delivering, which may be an issue with a smaller supplier like Serbia or Czechia. With both my aforementioned examples China went out of their way to create something that was closer to what Pakistan needed, and both of these systems were such that Pakistani already had limited options due to its funds and foreign relations. I don’t still think it justifies the issue, it just makes the choice easier for PA (or rather China makes themselves the best option, changing their systems in ways some other countries might not, which maybe also points to a lack of confidence in China for their own systems, making them Pakistan specific because they know Pakistan will buy, while other countries try to meet a global standard) hence trapping them into this cycle of Chinese systems. (Something seen more with the PA and less with PAF/PN)

However going into the future Pakistans options are only increasing and not decreasing, and starting with this procurement I hope they see that and don’t just buy a Chinese system.
Absolutely appreciate your frankness. this is what I enjoy about this forum, we can exchange great ideas insights (minus the noise of chinese bots on their section)

this is exactly the issue - Let us take material sciences - in the education institutions, there will be engineering or research programs but how many can take it to next level because you dont have actual industries that can make use of it. Alloys and new materials are key for very high pressure blasts. In terms of artillery - let us for the moment forget about alloys - let us focus on basebleed projectiles. has anyone been looking to see propellent or further improvisation that can occur or even at a much lower level e.g. 76mm or 105mm level. This kind of research needs to start with baby feet. I dont see that happening. That is what makes it worrisome; people want the end product but dont realise what is going into it. Similarly on aircraft front - if you look at Super M... did we see any innovation in terms of next levels; in past 40 yrs; it just moved from one version to next - in fact i digress - your hockey sticks are more innovative in using composites vs PAC - just food for thought (Malik is my fav stick).

I would have loved to see based technology - let us take the much useless old barrels of older UK pounders and be used to research base projectiles.

Fortune favours those who are bold and willing to take inniatives; if there is an idea - it needs to be kept in wraps and added to priority of R&D project works. This is where the decoupling of R&D needs to happen. Monies need to be added for this work. Take CSIR or even Turkish institutions; they are getting a lot of funding from the govt; that is where incubation hubs are.... they are not in dodo brained general controlled institutions - you cannot think or have free thought - you are just a bot.

I digressed. I will write to put a small write up later on some work i did for G5/G6 long back.
 

iLION12345_1

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Absolutely appreciate your frankness. this is what I enjoy about this forum, we can exchange great ideas insights (minus the noise of chinese bots on their section)

this is exactly the issue - Let us take material sciences - in the education institutions, there will be engineering or research programs but how many can take it to next level because you dont have actual industries that can make use of it. Alloys and new materials are key for very high pressure blasts. In terms of artillery - let us for the moment forget about alloys - let us focus on basebleed projectiles. has anyone been looking to see propellent or further improvisation that can occur or even at a much lower level e.g. 76mm or 105mm level. This kind of research needs to start with baby feet. I dont see that happening. That is what makes it worrisome; people want the end product but dont realise what is going into it. Similarly on aircraft front - if you look at Super M... did we see any innovation in terms of next levels; in past 40 yrs; it just moved from one version to next - in fact i digress - your hockey sticks are more innovative in using composites vs PAC - just food for thought (Malik is my fav stick).

I would have loved to see based technology - let us take the much useless old barrels of older UK pounders and be used to research base projectiles.

Fortune favours those who are bold and willing to take inniatives; if there is an idea - it needs to be kept in wraps and added to priority of R&D project works. This is where the decoupling of R&D needs to happen. Monies need to be added for this work. Take CSIR or even Turkish institutions; they are getting a lot of funding from the govt; that is where incubation hubs are.... they are not in dodo brained general controlled institutions - you cannot think or have free thought - you are just a bot.

I digressed. I will write to put a small write up later on some work i did for G5/G6 long back.
I wish I could add something to this but you said all I wanted to and more, much better than I ever could have.

Pakistans military “industry” has just been settled at whatever the military needs from them. The bare minimum. And so are their foreign acquisitions. There’s no future proofing…even if we excuse the lack of progress so far, at least whatever they’ve made has given them some experience, the Al-Khalid, the JF-17, whatever else, I don’t see that experience being used to do enough research, because they feel like the research is too basic and won’t get them anything, but if no one ever starts then there’s no future in any of these projects.

The frankly non-ideal solution I see for this is the next generation of people reaching the top, it will be a slow process, even more so than what it has been so far, but eventually someone will get up there that will be more visionary and realize this, they’ll start it off and things will follow. I just hope it doesn’t come so late that the second cycle of Pakistani defense production starts just as the first one is going right now.

it’s like healthcare, caring about preventive healthcare, making yourself healthy so you never have to worry about being sick and going to the doctor, or never caring about preventive healthcare and then getting really sick and having to go to a doctor. Eventually Pakistan is gonna get sick, be it sanctions, geopolitical issues, whatever. Pakistan is not preparing for that so far, as it wasn’t prepared when sanctions hit it the first time and it was forced to make some progress in the 90s and early 2000s. We can’t have that, but we’re holding out on hope, at least there’s small glimmers of it in projects like AZM.

Thank you for your insight though. It is a discussion forum after all, and these are the kinds of opinions we need.
 
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