• Sunday, December 8, 2019

Pakistani ICBM

Discussion in 'Pakistan Strategic Forces' started by Rafi, Jan 28, 2019.

  1. incognito1000

    incognito1000 FULL MEMBER

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    Seeing how it's so easy to make an ICBM and how utterly humiliating attacks have happened close to the heart of Pakistan's military "establishment", one wonders if the reason why "establishment" doesn't push for ICBM is because perhaps they have bank accounts and other financial assets somewhere in the west?

    You know, I still don't think I have heard a proper explanation as to how & why the OBL Raid happened and Pakistan did what it did? Come to think of it, what did Pakistan do...?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  2. AUz

    AUz ELITE MEMBER

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    Most likely Pakistan gave away Bin Laden to US. That’s what happened.

    Some of us might live long enough to know what really happened, once some American reveals the details in a book or something decades later
     
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  3. incognito1000

    incognito1000 FULL MEMBER

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    Well then, my question would be "what was he doing there?" If they wanted to give him away, why allow foreign helicopters to travel through your territory and conduct operation near your premier military academy? If they gave him away, why did they do so in such a way that caused irreparable damage to Pakistan? Why not just send him to Afghanistan and be done with it? Nothing is making sense.
    That's funny, my uncle said the same thing.
     
  4. R Wing

    R Wing FULL MEMBER

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    Having a basic delivery vehicle won't worry them much. A sophisticated MIRV / HGV type set-up might. Delivery is about a lot more than distance, especially when the defending country has advanced ballistic shield setups.
     
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  5. LeGenD

    LeGenD ELITE MEMBER

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    Pakistan Army have no hand in the Operation Neptune Spear. Findings of the Pakistan's official Commission Report are open-secret as well.

    American officials privy to the raid in question, have thoroughly refuted Seymour's account. Matters of high level of confidentiality are not disclosed to the public in the form of a book, mind you.

    US can pull off what India cannot - vast technological asymmetry. Just look at the situation of Russian forces in Syria - whenever US-led forces decided to punish Syrian regime - even the finest of Russian defenses and EW capabilities failed to undermine such American military operations.

    American Navy Seals have conducted Operation Neptune Spear type raids in Syria as well - ghost missions (rarely discussed in the public domain). In Pakistan, cover was blown due to loss of a helicopter.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  6. Oscar

    Oscar ADVISORS

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    The OBL raid has much darker undercurrents to it involving a massive US mole network within the Pakistani military and government at the time.
     
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  7. incognito1000

    incognito1000 FULL MEMBER

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    I can't accept this story either. Yes, US has capabilities to easily conduct surgical strikes in Pakistan. No one should fool themselves into believing Pakistan can stop them. However, the helicopters were hovering in the air for over thirty minutes right near the military academy. That is plenty of time to react to something as brazen as that. You can't tell me Pakistani military was sleeping the whole time and didn't even confront what was a clear violation of sovereignty. If Indians did the same, do you think similar excuse would have been made? Why did PAF make up excuses such as "radars being off"? This was a colossal failure, they didn't even bother defending. Till this day, we have not heard a clear & coherent story as to what & why it happened. In fact, even from multiple legit sources, we haven't heard a single story, rather many.

    I have no choice to believe that this happened with Pakistan being in on whatever was going on. I'm just wondering why they would do this and cause tremendous and irreparable damage to Pakistan? Was there a "secret" deal involved with US & establishment? If so, it's quite clear nothing came from it. Current NAB chief Iqbal was part of the commission to investigate this - conclusion if I remember correctly, was some deal was made and solution was to bring civilian control over army. Establishment, or probably just a single general, has a habit of making stupid verbal and nonenforceable deals, despite being back-stabbed numerous times throughout history.

    Or was there no deal and this was legit operation to get this guy? So then what was someone like OBL doing in Abbottabad? The sea burial was highly suspicious, was it really OBL? If not, then why not reveal this? Why was Pakistan hiding a liability like this? what benefit would that bring to play one of the stupidest double-games with a superpower doling out billions of aid to you? Was this a case of some general thinking he was "chalaak"? Also, why wouldn't US intelligence detect it sooner that OBL was in Pakistan, right next to their military? If US had no trouble taking him in that year, they would have had an easier time taking him in previous years when Pakistan was even weaker.

    The story becomes more murkier the more you think it through. Nothing makes sense. All that is certain officially is that Pakistan housed OBL for over a decade. Nothing will repair the grave damage this has caused to Pakistan. The worst part about this, is that just like Fall of Dhaka & Kargil, the uniforms responsible for this will never be punished.
    Sir, please tell me the juicy details. I think massive US mole network is an understatement for what is really going on. Question becomes, how can Pakistan have an independent foreign & nuclear policy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
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  8. AUz

    AUz ELITE MEMBER

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    How can one be sure that similar "mole network" has not compromised our nuclear facilities, locations, decision-making hierarchy, and so on?
     
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  9. Oscar

    Oscar ADVISORS

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    One cannot. Some unusual deaths out of these organizations should give some hints.
     
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  10. incognito1000

    incognito1000 FULL MEMBER

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    That has probably already happened. Just take a look at which military personnel, in charge of organizations related to nuclear weapons and missile development, have visited foreign countries normally hostile to homeland. I'm pretty sure in countries like US, China, Russia, that is a red-line. However, Pakistan is free-for-all.
    This depends heavily on some higher decision-making body organizing these unusual deaths. What if that higher decision-making body itself is compromised?
     
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  11. شاھین میزایل

    شاھین میزایل SENIOR MEMBER

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    Yeah, the government and military of Pakistan helped Obama in his election campaign
    Before OBL drama his votebank was empty.
    After OBL drama he was famous and shut up opposition by mentioning it in every pre election debate
    Obama is still thankful to Pakistan for the help.
     
  12. Riz

    Riz SENIOR MEMBER

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    A-SAT is way too important for us then an ICBM right now..
     
  13. LeGenD

    LeGenD ELITE MEMBER

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    What [was] the security level of a 'military academy' in a place like Abbottabad deep inside Pakistan? Was Pakistan even expecting a surgical strike on a compound from US as far as in Abbottabad? These are important considerations.

    Another incident in relation to the Pakistan Military Academy (PMA Kakul) back in 2012: https://fp.brecorder.com/2012/01/201201281147663/

    So?

    OPERATION NEPTUNE SPEAR took place late in the night when people were expected to be asleep in general. Additionally, helicopter-based activity at close proximity to PMA Kakul was unlikely to give the impression of something being off; anybody awake was likely to assume that Pakistan Army was up to something.

    Pakistani armed forces WERE ON THE MOVE [after] an explosion occurred in the target compound, but OPERATION NEPTUNE SPEAR was winding up at this point. PAF scrambled two F-16 aircraft to monitor aerial activity over Abbottabad and search for potential intruders but American helicopters and drones were very close to the PAK-Afghan border for EXIT at this point.

    Pakistani armed forces were NOT sleeping - never claimed this to be the case. However, you need to understand the basics of the vast American surveillance apparatus FIRST in order to understand how they were able to identify potential gaps in Pakistani defenses and exploited these gaps to their advantage to pull-off a surgical strike in Abbottabad. This is a lengthy discussion but I am in the position to give you important pointers.

    [1] https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ns-infrastructure.581116/page-4#post-10856517

    [2] https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/paki...ns-infrastructure.581116/page-4#post-10857776

    [3] https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/simorgh-class-drones-ashes-of-the-beast.455519/page-5#post-10970821

    [4] https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/simorgh-class-drones-ashes-of-the-beast.455519/page-5#post-10971887

    Whatever I have disclosed in those posts, is TRUE: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zo...ld-settle-debate-over-pakistan-india-dogfight

    Radar systems were NOT OFF at the time (refer to the Abbottabad Commission Report) - US-led forces employed certain techniques and tools to make the most threatening ones redundant for a while.

    [a] https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/06/world/asia/06helicopter.html

    [​IMG]

    LINK: https://theaviationist.com/2011/05/06/operation-neptunes-spear/

    Notice the yellow zone? This was the sector where Pakistani defenses were rendered redundant by powerful airborne Electronic Warfare assets for the duration of OPERATION NEPTUNE SPEAR within Pakistan.

    US-led forces utilized similar/same airborne Electronic Warfare assets to make Russian defenses redundant for a military operation in Syria on the night of April 14, 2018 because Russian authorities were opposing it after being warned in advance, and perceived it as a violation of the Deconfliction Arrangement with NATO for day-to-day activities in Syria.

    Pakistani defenses are really good in regional context, but not necessarily in global context. Unfortunately, Pakistani public expect too much from Pakistani armed forces in the face of overwhelming odds and otherwise. Even though then ISI chief Shuja Pasha offered to resign in the Parliament in a non-televised session out of guilt in the aftermath of the Operation Neptune Spear [5], his offer was declined by the elected officials attending this session.

    [5] https://www.thenational.ae/world/asia/pakistan-s-isi-chief-offers-to-resign-over-bin-laden-1.372530

    Then a homegrown narrative surfaced that Pakistani armed forces facilitated Americans in this operation - perhaps the agenda was to soothe Pakistan public. An American journalist Seymour Hersh offered an account of his own [6] which was also well-received in Pakistan.

    [6] https://www.lrb.co.uk/v37/n10/seymour-m-hersh/the-killing-of-osama-bin-laden

    American accounts are largely consistent in regards to how OPERATION NEPTUNE SPEAR unfolded. Refer to [a] and THE AVIATIONIST above, and additional accounts below.

    [c] https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/08/08/getting-bin-laden

    [d] https://www.history.com/news/osama-bin-laden-death-seal-team-six

    [e] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/29/us/politics/obama-legal-authorization-osama-bin-laden-raid.html

    [d] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15814872-no-easy-day

    Pakistan's own Abbottabad Commission Report drew similar conclusions with additional insights which one can expect from Pakistani officials only. Here: https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/spotlight/binladenfiles/

    Only Hersh is noted for disputing the widely established and cross-examined explanation of the operation [in question] in his book but he was not privy to the specifics of this operation in reality, and any book for sale is closely vetted by the American deep state to make sure that 'sensitive information' is not leaked in it.

    [7] https://www.vox.com/2015/5/11/8584473/seymour-hersh-osama-bin-laden

    [8]

    [9] https://www.politico.com/story/2015/05/seymour-hersh-bin-laden-raid-officials-criticism-117826

    It is CERTAINLY POSSIBLE that the American deep state tapped Hersh to do his bidding in order to soothe tempers in Pakistan - reshaping public opinion or an understanding with Pakistani establishment. We don't know.

    Why would Pakistani establishment allow [any] foreign entity to conduct a military operation this deep inside Pakistan? This is bit far for even the greatest of sellouts.

    Why Dr. Shakil Afridi is in jail and not getting bail? Something is amiss.

    Additional terrorists were also nabbed from Abbottabad: https://thediplomat.com/2011/05/abbottabad-terrorist-central/

    Not just Abbottabad but numerous Al-Qaeda operatives were caught in Karachi, Lahore, Quetta and Rawalpindi among others. You will find lot of information in the book of Pervez Musharraf: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/141550.In_the_Line_of_Fire

    It all makes sense when you piece together bits of information in right way, and realize sheer asymmetry between the military might of US and Pakistan.

    Osama Bin Laden was on the move since 2001 and changed his location SIX TIMES until he sought refuge in Abbottabad with support of his Pakistani handlers.

    2. Life in Hiding

    After bin Laden was killed, elements of the international media ran with a narrative that he had been relaxing in some sort of million-dollar summer resort/luxury fortress, kicking back as he relived his glory days and feasted on internet ****.

    This doesn’t seem to be the case. “They lived extremely frugally,” the Pakistani commission found. According to his wives, before bin Laden moved to the garrison town of Abbottabad in 2005, he owned just six pairs of shalwar kameez (three for the summer, three for the winter), a black jacket and two sweaters.

    For years, the families on the compound lived in a bubble – bin Laden with his three wives and the courier brothers, Ibrahim and Abrar, and their wives and children. The brothers bought groceries if necessary, though most of what they ate was grown on-site. Bin Laden’s son Khalid – 23 years old at the time of his death in 2011 – was responsible for plumbing and furnishing matters.

    None of the children on the compound went to school. Bin Laden’s family did not mix with the families of Abrar and Ibrahim. “The children did not play together. There was in fact a wall separating them,” the report says.

    While the couriers’ children were free to leave the compound and play, Bin Laden’s children were not. They “led extremely regimented and secluded lives” and were “very quiet.” Bin Laden was personally responsible for their religious education and playtime, the report says, “which included cultivating vegetable plots with simple prizes for best performances.”

    Though he sometimes complained of heart and kidney pains, bin Laden never left the compound, let alone visited a doctor. If he felt sick, he opted for natural Arab medicines, the report says. When coordinating a worldwide terror network left him feeling sluggish, he would reach for “some chocolate and an apple.”


    More information in this link: https://www.rollingstone.com/politi...ns-about-osama-bin-ladens-final-years-195413/

    Truth can be stranger than fiction at times, my friend.

    Indeed this is a DARK SPOT in Pakistan's history but this wasn't Pakistan's FAULT. Hersh implicated Pakistani establishment for sheltering Bin Laden in Abbottabad in his account, and this account does not bode well for Pakistan's image if to be taken at face value. US will always have this CARD up its sleeve to exploit...

    There might be additional elements to this story as @Oscar alluded to. But it rather indicates the level of breach by CIA within.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2019
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  14. BHarwana

    BHarwana ELITE MEMBER

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    Good question now what was Mullah Omer doing just 500 meter away from biggest US military base in Afghanistan all his life?
     
  15. incognito1000

    incognito1000 FULL MEMBER

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    Thanks for the extremely informative post! Can pretty much conclude that establishment was housing him. Why? No one will probably know