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Pakistan UAVs News & Discussions

Mrc

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Pakistan needs to work on low flying cheap mass produced suicide drone / loitering munitions

This seems to be ignored uptill now .

Iranian shahed 136 seems to be well in ukerine
 

ghazi52

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,.,.
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JamD

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Something possibly interesting.

Looking at Shahpar-2 and TB-2, it is easy to see that these are UCAVs in the same class. However, the way they are supposed to "close the kill chain" is quite different and makes for an interesting case study in my opinion.

Shahpar-II
Shahpar-II carries Burq/AR-1, which is a 45 kg missile that is supposed to reach out to 8-10 km. The Shahpar-II carries two of these.

Interestingly, for the photoshoot and brochure the Shahpar-II is equipped with Zumr-1 not Zumr-2.
View attachment 819993
The Zumr-1 has a laser range finder but no laser designator. However, in the video where Shahpar-II launches Burqs we can see that Shahpar-II is actually equipped with a Zumr-II:
View attachment 819997
You can tell Zumr-1 and 2 apart by noting Zumr-2's larger size and blockier appearance. The Zumr-II does have a laser designator that can laze targets up to 20 km away
View attachment 819987

So the way these are probably meant to be used is that a Shahpar-II lazes its own targets and fires 2 missiles max at 10 km at it.



TB2
Now the primary weapon of the TB2 is the MAM-L, which is a 22kg glide munition. Since the MAM-L weighs half as much as a Burq, the TB-2 can carry FOUR MAM-L's:
View attachment 820005
The fascinating thing is that the max range on the MAM-L is given as 15 km.
View attachment 820007
This is probably achieved by flying the TB2 really high.

The TB2 also carries a designator that can look out to 25 km
View attachment 820006

So the way the TB2s are probably used is that one TB2 has the mission of flying far away and designate targets (and record video for propaganda purposes). As far as I can tell most videos of TB2 strikes seem to show missiles that come from directions different from the video recording pointing to the fact that a different TB2 is probably launching the weapons. Now the other TB2 flies as high and fast as possible and launches its MAM-L's. The MAM-L's rely on the TB-2s energy (speed and altitude) to achieve their max range. If push comes to shove the TB-2 tasked with designating targets could also carry 4 MAM-Ls.

Comparison
So with very similar aircraft, the Shahpar-II and TB2 complete their mission very differently. The Shahpar-II carries two heavy missiles that use their rocket's energy to get to target. The Shahpar-II seems to have an engagement range smaller than that of TB2 by 5-7 km - this distance can mean the difference between survival and destruction. The TB2 uses the energy provided by the TB2 aircraft to get presumably double the amount of explosives (4 MAM-L's vs 2 Burq) to a target further away. It would appear that the TB2 way to do the mission is more efficient because it appears to give a longer range. This also explains Bayraktar's quest to fly the TB2 higher and higher (27k feet according to a Turkish member here). The TB2 and MAM-L are systems designed and optimized for each other. It is fascinating to try to understand design choices.

I am hopeful that our systems will get to this level of polish too.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @kursed this post may answer some of the questions that you guys have asked over time.
So here's some insight into the issues with our UAV program that I've come to know of. Issues that prevent our UCAV with the same engine from achieving the same endurance, ceiling, and payload. Disclaimer: I am not an expert in this area and I am only conveying what I was told.


Apparently a big reason is extremely poor composite manufacturing. So your composites need to be manufactured extremely carefully under very controlled conditions with strict quality control of inputs. None of this happens. Parts are manufactured in open environments with little or no quality control of inputs. The result is parts that are needlessly heavy and are inconsistent. An example given was two identical parts made the same day, before and after rain that changed humidity, caused the parts to weigh different and have different structural properties.


Composites manufacturing is another area we seem to be really far behind in with basically hobby level manufacturing capability.
 

sparten

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So here's some insight into the issues with our UAV program that I've come to know of. Issues that prevent our UCAV with the same engine from achieving the same endurance, ceiling, and payload. Disclaimer: I am not an expert in this area and I am only conveying what I was told.


Apparently a big reason is extremely poor composite manufacturing. So your composites need to be manufactured extremely carefully under very controlled conditions with strict quality control of inputs. None of this happens. Parts are manufactured in open environments with little or no quality control of inputs. The result is parts that are needlessly heavy and are inconsistent. An example given was two identical parts made the same day, before and after rain that changed humidity, caused the parts to weigh different and have different structural properties.


Composites manufacturing is another area we seem to be really far behind in with basically hobby level manufacturing capability.
I find that difficult to believe, since our metallurgy and material sciences research and manufacturing is at a very high level, a legacy of the nuclear program and the necessity of designing and building high speed centrifuges.
 

JamD

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I find that difficult to believe, since our metallurgy and material sciences research and manufacturing is at a very high level, a legacy of the nuclear program and the necessity of designing and building high speed centrifuges.
A. Straight from the horses mouth.
B. I'm pretty sure all of that metallurgical expertise is either lost due to a combination of time and our infamous silos of idaras or at best just siloed at KRL.
C. Composite manufacturing and centrifuge manufacturing are very very very different technologies (obviously) but you knew that.
 

sparten

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A. Straight from the horses mouth.
Cannot comment on that
B. I'm pretty sure all of that metallurgical expertise is either lost due to a combination of time and our infamous silos of idaras or at best just siloed at KRL.
Unlikely,. One of the things AQ did well was to diffuse expertise across various departments. Lots of KRL typed ended up at PAC and HIT.
C. Composite manufacturing and centrifuge manufacturing are very very very different technologies (obviously) but you knew that.
Errr, sorry what. Very high speed Centrifuges were literally one of the first applications for advanced composites and they remain one of the most complicated problems in composite manufacturing. There is a reason we have made about 5000 centrifuges, total, and hundreds of bombs while the Iranians have 20,000 active and still struggle to make one and its not because our ability to manufacture composites is poor.

I am not doubting the story. However, you need to be careful in reading about one particular **** up and using that as evidence of general failure.
 

Tipu7

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since our metallurgy and material sciences research and manufacturing is at a very high level,
Metallurgy and Material Science in Pakistan and high level?
Reality is exact opposite.
With a few exception in the nuclear domain (that too is subjected to debate), the quality of these fields in Pakistan is terrible to say the least.
 

JamD

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Cannot comment on that

Unlikely,. One of the things AQ did well was to diffuse expertise across various departments. Lots of KRL typed ended up at PAC and HIT.

Errr, sorry what. Very high speed Centrifuges were literally one of the first applications for advanced composites and they remain one of the most complicated problems in composite manufacturing. There is a reason we have made about 5000 centrifuges, total, and hundreds of bombs while the Iranians have 20,000 active and still struggle to make one and its not because our ability to manufacture composites is poor.

I am not doubting the story. However, you need to be careful in reading about one particular **** up and using that as evidence of general failure.
Ok you are welcome to your opinions as I am to mine.
 

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