What's new

Pakistan - Turkey (PAC-TAI) Collaboration for NGFA-TFX 5th Gen Aircraft l Updates, News & Discussion

Scorpiooo

FULL MEMBER
Apr 22, 2020
1,204
0
1,129
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
It's a JV b/w Kale Group and Rolls Royce for a new NGF engine as per Prof Ismail Demir. RR may not have a large market share in military grade engines to begin with. So, it's a win-win...
Whatever outcome, Turkish must have backup plan as well, they are very strong and becoming independent in defence industry
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

ELITE MEMBER
Nov 14, 2015
14,436
17
38,416
Country
United States
Location
United States
Whatever outcome, Turkish must have backup plan as well, they are very strong and becoming independent in defence industry
According to the Turkish Defense Industries boss Prof Demir at a very recent TV program there's an option from an X source. He doesn't want to disclose further....

Now, RR is already there, so any other Western source is highly unlikely. As for the Ukranian, nothing to add. As for the Russian, they don't have a proper FGF, not to mention the current mayhem. Now comes the "dark horse" China that in fact has equipped J-20s with their indigenous engines; and, add the Pak connection into the equation. Only future will tell....
 

Scorpiooo

FULL MEMBER
Apr 22, 2020
1,204
0
1,129
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
According to the Turkish Defense Industries boss Prof Demir at a very recent TV program there's an option from an X source. He doesn't want to disclose further....

Now, RR is already there, so any other Western source is highly unlikely. As for the Ukranian, nothing to add. As for the Russian, they don't have a proper FGF, not to mention the current mayhem. Now comes the "dark horse" China that in fact has equipped J-20s with their indigenous engines; and, add the Pak connection into the equation. Only future will tell....
Yes Chinese engine is possible via Pakistan
 

Silicon0000

FULL MEMBER
Mar 1, 2015
996
0
1,672
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
What about mission computer and coding? PAF and TAF both have to integrate different key systems along with weapon packages having both Chinese and European origin, This needs to be really flexible thing 🤔
 

Scorpiooo

FULL MEMBER
Apr 22, 2020
1,204
0
1,129
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
What about mission computer and coding? PAF and TAF both have to integrate different key systems along with weapon packages having both Chinese and European origin, This needs to be really flexible thing 🤔
It will also benefit tuskish, Chinese are going very advance in BRV and waepon
 

TsAr

FULL MEMBER
Dec 2, 2008
1,383
0
1,844
Engine would probably be Chinese, unless PAF wishes to surprise us. But avionics is a question mark in my mind. It may be a mix of things. But I think that the radar at least, the main component of avionics package, would be indigenous.
That would require lot of integration headaches, I hope it does not end up like SU30mki
 

Chak Bamu

RETIRED MOD
Jan 3, 2013
5,364
69
10,189
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
That would require lot of integration headaches, I hope it does not end up like SU30mki
PAF is smarter than IAF. I do not consider chances of that happening as above zero. PAF will not compromise on quality & I am sure that if any indigenous system does not come up to expectations, PAF would reject it & rightly so. We can not afford to experiment. Remember the first prototype of JF-17 in 2003? PAF rejected it outright. So, we should rest easy in that regard.
 

Chak Bamu

RETIRED MOD
Jan 3, 2013
5,364
69
10,189
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
If we are going to buy a Chinese or Turkish fighter jet in the end, then it is very unreasonable and expensive approach to work on NGFA.PAF should work on Turkish MIUS like stealth UCAVs.I am all for spending all our energies on avionics and UAVs development.

I somewhere read about development of fixed wing UAV.Thats the way to go.
I think either PAF has already been following a great approach (with much mis-info thrown in) or that someone has been paying attention to all the griping on this forum :-)
 
Last edited:

HRK

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Sep 24, 2010
13,562
107
36,083
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
but does this mean the cooperation with Turkey is more a system related one than airframe?
this is what was expected and understood

Following is what our Minister of defence Production said in 2016
- Turkey asked us to assist in Integration side for their 10 year national program for fighter jet (Minister didn't speak in detail about this)
- According to him we have at least this level of Capabilities, Expertise & Technology

Secondly one of our previous Air Chief (I think Sohail Aman) also hinted about cooperation on NGF with friendly countries.

So design is expected to be indigenous but at subsystems level many subsystems could be the combination of Jointly developed, Jointly research and even off-the-shelf purchases.
 
Last edited:

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SENIOR MEMBER
Aug 22, 2016
6,388
87
25,894
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
this is what was expected and understood

Following is what our Minister of defence Production said in 2016


Secondly one of our previous Air Chief (I think Sohail Aman) also hinted about cooperation on NGF with friendly countries.

So design is expected to be indigenous but at subsystems level many subsystems could be the combination of Jointly developed, Jointly research and even off-the-shelf purchases.
tbh, when you read what ACM Sohail Aman told Bol Narratives back in 2017, he basically said:

  1. The PAF will order J-10CE
  2. The PAF will sign up for the TFX
  3. The PAF is always open to more F-16s
In hindsight, it looks like a pretty rational and feasible strategy: You induct the J-10CE to get that 4.5-gen high-performance capability in parallel to an NGFA development program (be it TFX or J-35). You keep adding J-10CEs through the decade to keep the balance in check (2022-2032). From around 2035, you add the NGFA. If the US opts to release some more F-16s, then grape.

@JamD @kursed @SQ8

Narratives: Indian defence spending is among the highest in the world. India plans to overhaul its Air Force by 2020. The PAF doesn’t have such funding. How do you maintain a balance?
ACM: Overall Indian defence spending is seven to eight times more than ours, as they keep their defence-related research and development funds under a separate head.​
They have signed a deal to buy the French Rafale, which is absolutely a four-plus generation aircraft. They have the Sukhoi Su-30 MKIs. It is a potent aircraft. I, myself, have flown the Su-30 two or three times and found it very capable. But we have developed the JF-17 Thunder. We cannot call it parity, but we have a core structure, which doesn’t prevent us from launching an air campaign. It is all about your asset deployment. However, in future – in the next 10 years down the line – if we don’t induct fifth-generation aircraft, then the disparity will increase. Indians are working on a fifth-generation aircraft.​
Pakistan definitely has to induct new aircraft. We have both Chinese and Russian options.
Narratives: India is inducting US technology, which is now difficult for Pakistan to acquire. What are the options?
ACM: That’s a difficulty, but one has to adjust according to the international environment. The advantage we have is that the JF-17 production has given a major impetus to our engineers and technicians. We are integrating our technology with friendly countries, including Turkey. We are thinking of producing the next-generation aircraft by pooling resources with them. For this, the basic framework and agreements have been made.
The baseline is that we have to develop high-end technology ourselves. Of course, the American and Western technologies are better, but if it is unavailable, then we have to make the best use of our own capabilities and our friends.
Narratives: So should we call restrictions on technology transfer by the West a blessing in disguise for Pakistan?
ACM: In a way yes, but even when there were no restrictions and our relations with the United States were good, we worked very hard on the JF-17 project. And I am proud to say that it is comparable to any fourth generation aircraft. We have been steadily focusing on developing indigenous capabilities. It is not when we face sanctions alone that we think of developing indigenous technology.
Narratives: Are you looking for other options after Washington refused to fund its promised eight F-16s?
ACM: These F-16s had to be purchased on shared funding. Operation Zarb-e-Azb remains our war, but the Americans had been asking for a North Waziristan operation for years. I consider it a breach of promise on their part because the United States promised to co-fund this operation (as part of its foreign military assistance). They didn’t adhere to this promise, which is very sad. As a responsible nation, you don’t do this. American funding for F-16s would have been a win-win situation for both.
While that happened, we kept looking at other options. I think we have some of the leading options both in China and Russia. We are also collaborating with Turkey for developing a next generation aircraft.
Having said this, we still desire a very good relationship with the United States at the national level. The challenges are too big in this region (for both the countries). We have to fight terrorism together and it is a shared objective. It’s the question of giving Pakistan the capacity and capability to fight this threat. A myopic approach and restrictions won’t be helpful.
 

Scorpiooo

FULL MEMBER
Apr 22, 2020
1,204
0
1,129
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
tbh, when you read what ACM Sohail Aman told Bol Narratives back in 2017, he basically said:

  1. The PAF will order J-10CE
  2. The PAF will sign up for the TFX
  3. The PAF is always open to more F-16s
In hindsight, it looks like a pretty rational and feasible strategy: You induct the J-10CE to get that 4.5-gen high-performance capability in parallel to an NGFA development program (be it TFX or J-35). You keep adding J-10CEs through the decade to keep the balance in check (2022-2032). From around 2035, you add the NGFA. If the US opts to release some more F-16s, then grape.

@JamD @kursed @SQ8


PAF always waiting mode for more F16s.. of things work out
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

ELITE MEMBER
Nov 14, 2015
14,436
17
38,416
Country
United States
Location
United States
What about mission computer and coding? PAF and TAF both have to integrate different key systems along with weapon packages having both Chinese and European origin, This needs to be really flexible thing 🤔
I think it's very much doable once you have the permission and required codes from the OEMs for the imtegration...
 

raahaat7

FULL MEMBER
Feb 28, 2013
510
0
605
So when will the PAF be flying the TFX, somewhere around 2025?
??

Man...... who knows? A lot is being done behind closed doors. One can only imagine as what's being declared publicly. As far as I can understand, you were actually expecting a Pakistani design alone and alone being built. However, the keyword is always collaboration. You can call it TFX or NGF for PAF and TFX for TuAF both at a time. The highlighted part says the first cycle of conceptual design phase. Not even the design itself but first phase of a conceptual design followed by 3 more conceptual design to reach at final conceptual design and then so on and on. Not everything can be said or told by officials and I understand that. Exchange programs are actively being done and so the concern students or professionals are sent into other offices/entities to take part into R&D programs. Then after, they will have to look into future projects & so the collaboration. You don't just reinvent the wheel by your own at home.



Surprised by the date you mentioned. Is it coming from a source you might have seen? Please share in details.
not before 203
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom