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Pakistan Sets Eyes on China’s New J-35 Fighter Jet

Ark_Angel

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This won't get selected by Pakistani Top Brass , it won't pass the high standard for trials

  • Z-10 for rejected for Mythical , Super Cobras we had 4 machines we returned it politely
  • J-10B order was halted after General Musharraf had done all the good work
  • MPT Turkish Rifles were , again not up to Mythical high standards but 1950 rifles are great
  • No push was made to acquire South African Helicopters
  • In 90's when we had few Destroyers available it was deemed too expensive
  • 20 years War on Terror and we are still driving Toyota Trucks while world armies are using Armored Carriers


:coffee:

Once in blue moon a missile is launched at Sea targeting a mermaid
1. Z-10s were underpowered,over priced(not being offered as Gratis), under performing at Hot and High Altitude and participated in a tender which has the final outcome of only 01 Winner. Z-10s Techinal and Financial Bid both lost.
2. FC-20 deal snapped at the last moment due to IMF pressure and Zardari & Co who refused to dedicate Funds for the purchase. (A lot of resentment from the Airforce conveyed to the then Army Cheif Gen Kiyani resulted in ADF Jordanian F-16s. He played a Very Major part in getting those through by his Personal Diplomacy & Statecraft which convinced the Yanks in releasing them.
3. MPT-76 was 4th in the trials over all. There was no way in hell it would have been selected. Correct your facts first and then comment. Stop believing everything you read on the internet.
4. Rooivalk was never considered as it was never pitched to us neither we had a need for an attack helicopter back when it was being pursued by Denel.
5. Destroyers??? I don't get your point or fantasy.
6. MRAPs need of the hour, personally I would love to have it for our men as priority No.1. But due to some certain factors the proposal never takes off.
 

araz

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AVIC did not make the Z-10ME exclusively for Pakistan ... it was meant as a general upgrade for the Z-10.
Interesting. So the upgrade happened based on multiple recommendations which PAA made but it was still not made forPAA. The same thing happened with VT4.
A
 

jupiter2007

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Interesting. So the upgrade happened based on multiple recommendations which PAA made but it was still not made forPAA. The same thing happened with VT4.
A
I guess performance didn’t match the price tag. It needs a better engine and might be good option for Navy or marines.
 

Aryeih Leib

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Sir EFT and F35 are two different platforms

Our airforce is focusing on AMCA
So why is India producing LCA when it is buying russian 4th generation fighters almost every other year????

Why did Britain produce Eurofights when they are purchasing F-35s????

Please share your wisdom as to why PAF cant purchase the cheapest 5th generation jets it has available while also having its own domestic 5th generation program as the successor to the JF-17?
 

Niko Zhang

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hmmm you can say that but facts are F31 did have a first public flight with RD 93 engines and engines are some thing you cant change in the middle infact WS series is built upon the RD series ,with latest RD33m (probable candidate for JF17 block 3) strong possibilities same engine can be used on FC31 ,remmember engine commonality does provides lot of advantages .F104 Engines type concept .Russia will be happy
1, do u know that there is such thing called WS-12?
2, you know there are FC-31 1.0 and 2.0 right?
 

aliyusuf

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What is the difference between J-31/FC-31 and J-35?
Is J-35 eventually going to be the production version of J-31 or it's a separate bird?
 

araz

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Araz, I would partially agree with you here. The Chinese have been more than willing to transfer tech for license manufacture in Pakistan, e.g. Al Khalid, K-8, etc, and if Pakistan is willing to pay for development costs, I think they'd be more than happy to help us in designing a bespoke fifth gen fighter. However, as I alluded to in my post, I don't think they'd be willing to subsidise another fighter programme, in a similar manner as they did with the JF-17, but this time for a fifth gen design, primarily designed for the PAF and with little potential use in the PLAF. In that regard, a PAF version of the FC-31/J-35 would remain the only realistic option. The Turks and the TFX, which although can't be ruled out, would be highly risky, not only because of lack of historical precedent by Turkey in fighter development (and not to diminish the Turk's excellent technological and industrial base), but also because of the current geopolitical uncertainty facing Turkey and its reliance on third party technology, on which the TFX heavily relies, e.g. BAE and other third parties for design and critical technologies.
Thank you for an illuminating post. I wanted to expand furhter on the Turkish TFX programme. We have PAF officials saying it suits PAF's needs perfectly. While the project is risky on account of Turkish lack of previous experience in full production of fighters, there are a few things going for the project.
Turkey will need economy of scale which will reduce per unit cost of the fighter if it can find a fighter with a need for 100 units which PAC will easily need.
Turkey will soon start engine manufacturing/Subassembly of the EJ 200 series which is a much more mature engine than anything that the Chinese will be able to provide given their current progress.
Turkish cost of Production remains high as compared to PAC and subassembly contract not only reducees costs further for them but lightens their load without compromising any critical industry.
For the moment they retain access to western technologies and this remains another positive in their favour as with JFT PAC has repeatedly chosen EU products where they have found the Chinese products to not meet their needs.
The overall production cost will be higher as well as the risk mitigation. we have heard of collaboration and advice from the Turks recently on the Azm design. However, and very interestingly PAC timelines allow it to follow both the Chinese and the Turkish developemnts and if the Turks are progressing at least with the engine technology PAC may evolve a hybrid solution with subassemblies from multiple providers. Of all the technologies, engine remains the major bugbear of any development. The US is closed to us as is EU for the most part. Russia is partly open and the Chinese are not there yet. So where do we go and what do we do? This remains a major question for us to answer. I think if the Turks are able to successfully integrate locally manufactured EJ200 series engines into the TFX, we may well have to side up with them(this may well happen around 2025 if not earlier)
I honestly do not know enough about Chinese engine development to be confidently able to say this is the route to go. There are lots of hoops to cross along the way and once the engine issue is cleared, I suspect the picture will become a lot clearer. The Chinese will obviously collaborate but there are no frrebies coming from them anymore and in fact there has been a bit of reluctance to share even information about their latest programmes with the visiting PAF/PN/ PA teams. I cannot fault them for it but I dont think this garden is as rosy as it once was. I dont think we offer anything to the Chinese for them to cook a full project for us(as you have alluded). PAF/PAC remain fussy clients and the Chinese are not entertaining this anymore. However, J31/J20 may well become an off the shelf purchase in case of set backs in Azm, Turkish set backs, or 5th generation acquisition by the Indians. Where the Indian 5th generation project will come from also remains unclear. I dont see them going for F35 unless they get desperate.
These remain my thoughts on the project as it appears to me . Please feel free to correct what ever you deem to be incorrect.
Regards
A
 

Ultima Thule

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Thank you for an illuminating post. I wanted to expand furhter on the Turkish TFX programme. We have PAF officials saying it suits PAF's needs perfectly. While the project is risky on account of Turkish lack of previous experience in full production of fighters, there are a few things going for the project.
Turkey will need economy of scale which will reduce per unit cost of the fighter if it can find a fighter with a need for 100 units which PAC will easily need.
Turkey will soon start engine manufacturing/Subassembly of the EJ 200 series which is a much more mature engine than anything that the Chinese will be able to provide given their current progress.
Turkish cost of Production remains high as compared to PAC and subassembly contract not only reducees costs further for them but lightens their load without compromising any critical industry.
For the moment they retain access to western technologies and this remains another positive in their favour as with JFT PAC has repeatedly chosen EU products where they have found the Chinese products to not meet their needs.
The overall production cost will be higher as well as the risk mitigation. we have heard of collaboration and advice from the Turks recently on the Azm design. However, and very interestingly PAC timelines allow it to follow both the Chinese and the Turkish developemnts and if the Turks are progressing at least with the engine technology PAC may evolve a hybrid solution with subassemblies from multiple providers. Of all the technologies, engine remains the major bugbear of any development. The US is closed to us as is EU for the most part. Russia is partly open and the Chinese are not there yet. So where do we go and what do we do? This remains a major question for us to answer. I think if the Turks are able to successfully integrate locally manufactured EJ200 series engines into the TFX, we may well have to side up with them(this may well happen around 2025 if not earlier)
I honestly do not know enough about Chinese engine development to be confidently able to say this is the route to go. There are lots of hoops to cross along the way and once the engine issue is cleared, I suspect the picture will become a lot clearer. The Chinese will obviously collaborate but there are no frrebies coming from them anymore and in fact there has been a bit of reluctance to share even information about their latest programmes with the visiting PAF/PN/ PA teams. I cannot fault them for it but I dont think this garden is as rosy as it once was. I dont think we offer anything to the Chinese for them to cook a full project for us(as you have alluded). PAF/PAC remain fussy clients and the Chinese are not entertaining this anymore. However, J31/J20 may well become an off the shelf purchase in case of set backs in Azm, Turkish set backs, or 5th generation acquisition by the Indians. Where the Indian 5th generation project will come from also remains unclear. I dont see them going for F35 unless they get desperate.
These remain my thoughts on the project as it appears to me . Please feel free to correct what ever you deem to be incorrect.
Regards
A
How about the fuselage development jointly by Pakistan and China and avionics/AESA comes from Turkey , is this possible for project AZM Sir
 

araz

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How about the fuselage development jointly by Pakistan and China and avionics/AESA comes from Turkey , is this possible for project AZM Sir
I think fuselage can be built in pakistan barring central bit where the engine is mounted. This is he same as the JFT. Our manufacturing standards are pretty good so no reason to get this done by anyone. The central fuselage will have to be designed/built in collaboration with the entity providing the engine. Aesa,Avionics can come from anywhere but we may be able by that time to subassemble them locally. We now have the capacity/capability of local integration of armaments.
I hope this answers the possibility that you have raised
 

The Raven

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Thank you for an illuminating post. I wanted to expand furhter on the Turkish TFX programme. We have PAF officials saying it suits PAF's needs perfectly. While the project is risky on account of Turkish lack of previous experience in full production of fighters, there are a few things going for the project.
Turkey will need economy of scale which will reduce per unit cost of the fighter if it can find a fighter with a need for 100 units which PAC will easily need.
Turkey will soon start engine manufacturing/Subassembly of the EJ 200 series which is a much more mature engine than anything that the Chinese will be able to provide given their current progress.
Turkish cost of Production remains high as compared to PAC and subassembly contract not only reducees costs further for them but lightens their load without compromising any critical industry.
For the moment they retain access to western technologies and this remains another positive in their favour as with JFT PAC has repeatedly chosen EU products where they have found the Chinese products to not meet their needs.
The overall production cost will be higher as well as the risk mitigation. we have heard of collaboration and advice from the Turks recently on the Azm design. However, and very interestingly PAC timelines allow it to follow both the Chinese and the Turkish developemnts and if the Turks are progressing at least with the engine technology PAC may evolve a hybrid solution with subassemblies from multiple providers. Of all the technologies, engine remains the major bugbear of any development. The US is closed to us as is EU for the most part. Russia is partly open and the Chinese are not there yet. So where do we go and what do we do? This remains a major question for us to answer. I think if the Turks are able to successfully integrate locally manufactured EJ200 series engines into the TFX, we may well have to side up with them(this may well happen around 2025 if not earlier)
I honestly do not know enough about Chinese engine development to be confidently able to say this is the route to go. There are lots of hoops to cross along the way and once the engine issue is cleared, I suspect the picture will become a lot clearer. The Chinese will obviously collaborate but there are no frrebies coming from them anymore and in fact there has been a bit of reluctance to share even information about their latest programmes with the visiting PAF/PN/ PA teams. I cannot fault them for it but I dont think this garden is as rosy as it once was. I dont think we offer anything to the Chinese for them to cook a full project for us(as you have alluded). PAF/PAC remain fussy clients and the Chinese are not entertaining this anymore. However, J31/J20 may well become an off the shelf purchase in case of set backs in Azm, Turkish set backs, or 5th generation acquisition by the Indians. Where the Indian 5th generation project will come from also remains unclear. I dont see them going for F35 unless they get desperate.
These remain my thoughts on the project as it appears to me . Please feel free to correct what ever you deem to be incorrect.
Regards
A
Thank you Araz for your thoughts. And it's not a question of being "correct" or "incorrect", there's only so much detail available publicly. I would agree with a lot of your thoughts, but one of the things which we do not yet know for certain is whether the Western suppliers of those critical technologies would allow third party collaboration and/or export of the TFX. For example, BAE has been selected as the design and development partner, and as you've described, the TFX will use the EJ200 engine, at least until the Turks develop there own equivalent. But then that begs the question, if you think the Chinese do not have mature engine technology, why would the Turks be any different? As you've described, the core critical component will be engine tech, especially for the power requirements for a fifth gen type. If the Europeans do not allow third party collaboration or export license for the EJ200, then the TFX is a no go, at least until, or if, it ever gets a Turkish powerplant. But I think the chances of the Turks developing a high quality engine is about the same as the Chinese, and we've seen how even the Chinese have struggled in this regard. China would still be the less risky option in terms of design and development, and perhaps the Russians as an option for the powerplant, on the back of the relationship with Klimov and the RD-93. But besides all that, we don't even know whether the TFX would pass the requirements of the PAF, or the FC-31/J-35 for that matter, in which case the PAF is left with pursuing a bespoke design with external design and development assistance.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Thank you Araz for your thoughts. And it's not a question of being "correct" or "incorrect", there's only so much detail available publicly. I would agree with a lot of your thoughts, but one of the things which we do not yet know for certain is whether the Western suppliers of those critical technologies would allow third party collaboration and/or export of the TFX. For example, BAE has been selected as the design and development partner, and as you've described, the TFX will use the EJ200 engine, at least until the Turks develop there own equivalent. But then that begs the question, if you think the Chinese do not have mature engine technology, why would the Turks be any different? As you've described, the core critical component will be engine tech, especially for the power requirements for a fifth gen type. If the Europeans do not allow third party collaboration or export license for the EJ200, then the TFX is a no go, at least until, or if, it ever gets a Turkish powerplant. But I think the chances of the Turks developing a high quality engine is about the same as the Chinese, and we've seen how even the Chinese have struggled in this regard. China would still be the less risky option in terms of design and development, and perhaps the Russians as an option for the powerplant, on the back of the relationship with Klimov and the RD-93. But besides all that, we don't even know whether the TFX would pass the requirements of the PAF, or the FC-31/J-35 for that matter, in which case the PAF is left with pursuing a bespoke design with external design and development assistance.
...if only that was the case. IIRC the Turks cranked it up to the next level of using two F100/F110-class engines. The prototype will use a GE engine, but the goal is to replace it with an indigenous one.

So, I don't know, doesn't seem like the TF-X can be an option, at least as a developmental route or in the closer/nearer-term timelines of the PAF. I suspect the PAF would much rather a FC-31/J-35/KF-X-sized aircraft with 2 RD-93MAs.
 
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