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Pakistan s Strategic Situation

Hellfire

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Which ideological fissures (coming to the fore currently) specifically do you see as contributing to Pakistan's downfall?
AM.

It is, as I had said in a brief interaction with you back in 2009, the advent of the radical version of Islam which has evolved into an 'ideology' in certain parts of the Pakistani society. It is an admixture of the result of the 'islamisation' of the education as a state policy coupled to a generation of mujaheddin created and indoctrinated to wage "jihad" against Soviet Union. A robust infrastructure to churn out such motivated individuals was put in place, which has, by and large survived as Pakistani State shifted it's focus from Afghanistan to Kashmir also.

We have had an interaction on this briefly earlier in 2009 also.

I will just post excerpt of the post I had made in another thread:


However, it is worth mentioning that this re-wrting of the narrative especially gained currency under the late Gen Zia-ul-Haq government.

The task of rewriting history books, and I rely on 'Rewriting the History Of Pakistan' by Pervez Amirali Hoodbhoy and Abdul Hameed Nayyar when I state the following, started in earnest in 1981, when General Zia ul Haq declared compulsory, the teaching of Pakistan studies to all degree students, including those at engineering and medical colleges. Shortly thereafter, the University Grants Commission issued a directive to prospective textbook authors/writers specifying that the objective of the new course is to

'induce pride for the nation's past, enthusiasm for the present, and unshakeable faith in the stability and longevity of Pakistan'

[University Grants Commission directive, quoted in Azhar Hamid, et al. Mutalliyah-i-Pakistan (Islamabad: Allama IqbalOpen University, 1983), p. xi.]

To eliminate possible ambiguities of approach, authors were given the following directives:

To demonstrate that the basis of Pakistan is not to be founded in racial, linguistic, or geographical factors, but, rather, in the shared experience of a common religion. To get students to know and appreciate the Ideology of Pakistan, and to popularize it with slogans. To guide students towards the ultimate goal of Pakistan - the creation of a completely Islamised State (p. xii-xiii of aforementioned report)

In fulfillment of this directive, modern texts of Pakistani history are centred around the following themes:

1. The 'Ideology of Pakistan', both as a historical force which motivated the movement for Pakistan as well as its raison d'etre.

2. The depiction of Jinnah as a man of orthodox religious views who sought the creation of a theocratic state

3. A move to establish the ulema as genuine heroes of the Pakistan Movement.

4. An emphasis on ritualistic Islam, together with a rejection of liberal interpretations of the religion and generation of
communal antagonism.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/pakistan...-in-history-ayaz.446122/page-10#ixzz4Jb1bmUTG


This thrust as an official state policy, together with the effects of the Afghan War and ideological radicalisation undertaken in support of the same, am sure has created a situation wherein the takfiri ideology has gained traction and the schism of shia-sunni is likely to increase, wouldn't you agree?

To quote David Satter;

A religion becomes an ideology when its man-made elements become an idée fixe and are seized upon as an idea that can be imposed on all political and social institutions in the interests of power. The temptation was explained best in Dostoevsky’s tale of the Grand Inquisitor where the inquisitor explains to Jesus the essence of an ideology’s appeal:

Instead of the strict ancient law, man had in future to decide for himself with a free heart what is good and what is evil, having only your image before him for guidance. But did it never occur to you that he would at last reject and call in question even your image and your truth, if he were weighed down by as fearful a burden as freedom of choice.

Based on this, would it be wrong to say that the obligation in Islam to wage jihad (although it is strictly a personal issue), if "properly" interpreted, can be made the basis of an ideology which treats waging war on unbelievers as the highest obligation of a Muslim and serves as a template to evaluate and appreciate all actions in terms of the extent to which they support this sacred obligation? Is that not what we see in the rise and the mass appeal to AQ and now ISIS?

How then, do you propose, to label the Pakistani society being free of the same deluge? Is the increased incidence of terror attacks in Pakistan, not an indicator of the same?



You can see it. I can see it. The whole world may see it. But does Pakistan see it this way?
Well, the price, in that case, will be paid and it shall be heavy.

@nair something we discussed. Collate with earlier posts

@Joe Shearer i think you should come back now
 
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Spring Onion

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I kept reading and nodding in affirmative and but waiting for the conclusion and that is
"All the intellect and facts used by the author to defend NS and protect his govt". The quality of language and his manipulation of the facts for this purpose warrants a hefty pay cheque for him from Bubble butts media cell.
All the threats he mentioned in his article get overshadowed by the threat an incompetent, extremely corrupt and traitor NS poses to Pakistan period.

As far as I know about the author well Asif sahab has no such link with Nawaz Sharif hence defending his government sounds harsh allegation in my opinion. As far as I know one of his family members (a very brave and learned writer ), well they had been victim of a party who has made entire Karachi hostage
 

war&peace

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As far as I know about the author well Asif sahab has no such link with Nawaz Sharif hence defending his government sounds harsh allegation in my opinion. As far as I know one of his family members (a very brave and learned writer ), well they had been victim of a party who has made entire Karachi hostage
Stressing so much on external factors and disregarding the corruption and incompetence of the current govt makes me believe otherwise. It is not necessary to have a history of relations, Bubble butts' media cell always search for and rewards now entrants to the program. You know we all know little bit of extra money...to get some new stuff. Furthermore, I read his article for the first time so I don't more info about him except that perhaps he is not among the most famous journalists in Pak so it is easier for both parties.
 

I.R.A

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How then, do you propose, to label the Pakistani society being free of the same deluge? Is the increased incidence of terror attacks in Pakistan, not an indicator of the same?
How many Pakistanis are there in ISIS? Why ISIS is struggling to get a strong foothold in Pakistan? Why they had to rely on ex-TTP to be ISIS in this area? Or forget ISIS why haven't we seen any Molvi politician ruling Pakistan yet?

Benazir became the prime minister of Pakistan right when newscasters in PTV used to cover their heads. The time when in terms of how much conservative the society is, Pakistan was ripe, it should have been impossible for a woman to be a ruler in Pakistan back then, but she still succeeded, why?

In your quest that "I understand Pakistani society" you are relying on some very faulty source of information, in your analysis there are many many things / factors that you are unaware of or can never understand. Pakistanis of today feel they are past terrorism, the feeling of stability is prevailing, changes are happening though gradually but happening, political stability, people opening up may be an indicator how we may have progressed out of mayhem to going back on track. For the first time we may witness 10 years of continuous civil rule. But your are making it sound like as if Pakistan is still stuck somewhere in 2001 through 2013. There is a majority of Pakistani society that does not get reported on TV, no news articles addresses how they behave and what they think, so basing your conclusion about a society by simply seeing what media wants you to see, or what one writer wishes you to believe, would lead you to a false conclusion.

Terror attacks in Pakistan tried their best to kill ordinary Pakistanis in markets, schools, universities, political rallies, mosques, churches .............. doesn't that indicate those terror attacks did not have anything to with imposing Islam but venting out frustration on common people? The purpose was and still is to make Pakistani people insecure, unsafe, frustrated, hopeless ........... but thanks to our high level of insensitivity (a blessing in disguise) that we proved resilient.

By the way I would be more worried about india these days, the intolerance in indian society seems so deep that even your skin color may land you in trouble, we had extremist organisations and overall insensitive people but you have too many ordinary people who worship a religiously motivated ruler and appreciate him for his hatred. The signs are not good. Indians may have been outnumbered by modi indians and India may have surrendered into being a modi india.

Edit: Latest update on modi indians.
https://defence.pk/threads/pokemon-go-offends-hindus-court-told.448339/#post-8666212
 
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AgNoStiC MuSliM

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This thrust as an official state policy, together with the effects of the Afghan War and ideological radicalisation undertaken in support of the same, am sure has created a situation wherein the takfiri ideology has gained traction and the schism of shia-sunni is likely to increase, wouldn't you agree?
The Shia-Sunni schism in Pakistan has increased to a degree already, inflamed not only by certain internal dynamics but also by the Saudi-Iranian conflict and their bloody proxy wars being played out in Syria, Iraq and Yemen.

Within Pakistan, the degree to which the Shia-Sunni schism will advance, and whether it has already reached its zenith, is arguable. Terrorism (including sectarian terrorism) domestically has driven a vast majority of Pakistanis away from ideologies promoting violence. The bloody conflicts in Iraq, Syria and Yemen have triggered significant amounts of constructive discourse on sectarianism in the media and public sphere, and there appears to be, in principle, a political, military and public consensus on reining in sectarian groups and hate speech, though implementation (primarily due to various reasons on the Federal and Provincial government side) is far from satisfactory.

The PML-N's very public 'dissing' of the Saudi's over Yemen (supported in parliament by every major political party), the frequent killings of sectarian terrorists (including top leadership) in 'police encounters', the condemnation of sectarianism on major media (especially TV) outlets - all of this points to a broad national consensus against extremist sectarian thought and violence. So while I would expect sectarian terrorism to continue, given the lack of a focused and long term strategy on the elected government side, I don't see the 'Shia-Sunni schism' going beyond the current levels, and certainly never reaching the levels we see in Iraq, Yemen or Syria, if for no reason than that the demographic makeup of Pakistan is one where the Shia's are dispersed and integrated across the country, rather than concentrated in particular regions (G-B being the exception).

On another note, what was your response to my question:

'Re-establishment of mutual confidence' to what end?
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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And yet, target killings of Shia professionals continue unabated.
As I stated in my post:

So while I would expect sectarian terrorism to continue, given the lack of a focused and long term strategy on the elected government side, I don't see the 'Shia-Sunni schism' going beyond the current levels, and certainly never reaching the levels we see in Iraq, Yemen or Syria, if for no reason than that the demographic makeup of Pakistan is one where the Shia's are dispersed and integrated across the country, rather than concentrated in particular regions (G-B being the exception).
 

VCheng

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Continuing sectarian terrorism will undermine society and broaden schisms undoubtedly over time. To claim that is will not go beyond current levels somehow makes it tolerable is dishonest.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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Continuing sectarian terrorism will undermine society and broaden schisms undoubtedly over time. To claim that is will not go beyond current levels somehow makes it tolerable is dishonest.
Depends upon the level of sectarian terrorism. Pakistan has suffered sectarian terrorism for decades, at much higher levels than in recent years. The current low levels are more than manageable, even with with the 'far from satisfactory' civilian government efforts against sectarian groups, which is an improvement over the significantly greater patronage of these groups in the past.
 

Spring Onion

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Stressing so much on external factors and disregarding the corruption and incompetence of the current govt makes me believe otherwise. It is not necessary to have a history of relations, Bubble butts' media cell always search for and rewards now entrants to the program. You know we all know little bit of extra money...to get some new stuff. Furthermore, I read his article for the first time so I don't more info about him except that perhaps he is not among the most famous journalists in Pak so it is easier for both parties.

I personally BELIEVE and firmly believe that we should let the democratic government complete the tenure.

As far as money is concerned I can say with conviction that Asif Sahab's family does not bow to such benefits. He is not most famous indeed because he is not favourit of foreign funded media houses :)
 

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