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Pakistan, Russia to expand military ties

CrazyZ

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Seriously? How is JF-17 better than su-30 ..in whst regards?

It's all about operational need. For long range and heavy bombardment operations the Su flanker series is clearly superior. The PAF is a defensive force that doesn't have to go far to engage the enemy...in a threat rich environment. The JF-17 is very capable in this role plus it has a lower rcs.
...combined with modern jamming equipment it can be hard to hit. No need to run to the Su yet. The PN should consider the SU because it's duel engined and has long-range with a heavy payload.
 

SABRE

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We are not a signatory to MTCR hence we can not purchase the system, not even if we had the money.

MTCR has less to do with the buyer and more to do with the seller. It is mostly concerned about controlling the proliferation of complete systems like ballistic missiles, SLVs, certain types of UAVs (identifies cruise missiles as UAV item) and RPVs, or dual-use technologies that can be used for both civilian and military rocket and UAV programmes. In essence, it has been concerned with delivery vehicles capable of carrying a nuclear payload. The control is specifically imposed on missiles able to carry 500kg payload at the range equal or exceeding 300km.

MTCR is also just an informal arrangement. Meaning it is not a lawfully binding treaty. It is a group of nations that seek to maintain a political and technological monopoly over advance rocketry. Its violations only have political repercussions; nothing more, nothing less. MTCR members have generally stayed away from politics over surface-to-air/anti-aircraft missiles. I do not think Russian membership of MTCR would have any impact on its will to sell S500 to anyone. Outside of MTCR, the Americans would not be too happy with both the Russians and the buyer(s).
 
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Zee-shaun

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MTCR has less to do with the buyer and more to do with the seller. It is mostly concerned about controlling the proliferation of complete systems like ballistic missiles, SLVs, certain types of UAVs (identifies cruise missiles as UAV item) and RPVs, or dual-use technologies that can be used for both civilian and military rocket and UAV programmes. In essence, it has been concerned with delivery vehicles capable of carrying a nuclear payload. The control is specifically imposed on missiles able to carry 500kg payload at the range equal or exceeding 300km.

MTCR is also just an informal arrangement. Meaning it is not a lawfully binding treaty. It is a group of nations that seek to maintain a political and technological monopoly over advance rocketry. Its violations only have political repercussions; nothing more, nothing less. MTCR members have generally stayed away from politics over surface-to-air/anti-aircraft missiles. I do not think Russian membership of MTCR would have any impact on its will to sell S500 to anyone. Outside of MTCR the Americans would not bee too happy with both the Russians and the buyer(s).
I agree with you on technical details. The MTCR regime forbids the sale of missiles exceeding 300km indeed where as the S-500 has a range of 600km. Regardless of the ohter details, Russia as a signatory to MTCR can not offer the system to Pakistan unless they come up with a downgraded veraion with 290-299km range. For this very reason they developped the Brahmos with India which was a downgraded veraion of the Yakhont with a range under 300km.
 

blueazure

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jf 17 programme -

the world had decided/ swore to not sell us even a bolt for the thunder right when the project was midway . Chinese engine tech was not advanced nor appropriate , all options were exhausted .

holy smokes, Russia agrees to sell us the RD 33 . its a solid, reliable, rugged piece of turbo fan ( 2x RD33 propel the mig 29) and can take punishment and has minimal turnaround time . in feb 2019, JF 17s maintained hi readiness thanks to the reliability of the russian power plant.



helis

we needed a gun ship for tribal areas liotering, russia steps in with the mi 35. this beast has a proven track record and is loaded with upgraded avionics . mil guys also stepped in and sold us the mi 17 back in the mid 90s when were getting short on medium lift, the 17s have served superbly


rus-pak relations are just about the start gents
 

SABRE

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I agree with you on technical details. The MTCR regime forbids the sale of missiles exceeding 300km indeed where as the S-500 has a range of 600km. Regardless of the ohter details, Russia as a signatory to MTCR can not offer the system to Pakistan unless they come up with a downgraded veraion with 290-299km range. For this very reason they developped the Brahmos with India which was a downgraded veraion of the Yakhont with a range under 300km.

These are not my technical details. They are MTCR's own technical details. BrahMos is a cruise missile. It is by express or specifically covered by MTCR. Thus, the reported range of 290Km. The intent of the regime was to prevent a proliferation of surface-to-surface missile/rocket capabilities. SLVs were seen as enablers of systems like ballistic missiles, thus they too were included. But surface-to-air missiles are very tricky when it comes to MTCR. So far MTCR has not been tested on this and the sellers have traded carefully. Most SAM producing states do not employ or sell long-range SAMs. Medium range systems with an operational range below 100km have been deemed more effective. Russia perhaps is the only country pursuing long-range SAMs. So far they too have sold versions that have range below 300km, but there are reports that they might supply China with the 40N6E version of S400, which has a range exceeding 300Km. If true it would be interesting to see how MTCR membership reacts to it as China is not a signatory/member.

The intra-regime trade in the MTCR is also criticized. The nonproliferation experts were critical when the US Navy and the Japanese government began considering joint research on exoatmospheric BMD system. The nonproliferation lobby considered such intra-regime venture against the rules of MTCR, but the two member states did not. I have forgotten the name of the system, but the nonproliferation argued that such a system can be reverse engineered into a ballistic missile with 2500km range.

But keeping technicalities asides, in general terms, you are right. There is always the reality that SAMs can be converted to surface-to-surface/ballistic missiles. Case in hand, India's Prithvi SRBM is driven from Soviet SA-2 SAM, and as argued in the above-mentioned case. This is where the MTCR members would be most critical and could raise non-compliance issue on sales of systems like S500 to countries like Pakistan that have the ability to reverse engineer missiles, even though we have no need to undertake such activity. But the first and foremost thing needs to be highlighted here is that there is no export version of S500. If an export version is ever produced then your point that I have put in bold is likely to happen. But this too has a long way to go. The S400 40N6E with 300km+ range is a priority for Russia at present. S500 is still its initial phase.
 

Lincoln

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Interesting, verrry interesting. Judging by this interview alone the Ruskies it seems are on our side. The tables have turned. Wow.

To be fair, she was as equally tough on Pakistan's ex-foreign minister.

But, stuff has changed no doubt. There was a govt university institute i remember which i was looking up, under contacts, map showed whole Kashmir with India.

I visited it few days back, they removed their whole custom map and added in the google maps rather which correctly shows LOC and all.
 

tarrar

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A visit by PM IK is needed to Russia to strengthen ties between the two.
 

KeyBORED Warrior

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To be fair, she was as equally tough on Pakistan's ex-foreign minister.

But, stuff has changed no doubt. There was a govt university institute i remember which i was looking up, under contacts, map showed whole Kashmir with India.

I visited it few days back, they removed their whole custom map and added in the google maps rather which correctly shows LOC and all.
Well it seems both nations have shrugged off the cold war mentality and now are in the same eastern camp alongwith China. Turkey, sooner or later will join in too. Its us four against the West with india being the West's lapdog. Thats for sure.
 

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