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Pakistan officially inducts HQ 9 Air Defence system

SQ8

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It’s funny how insignificant this debate of cities is considering they’re going to be covering everything equally…but y’know…have at it.
It all stems from the old “PAF wasn’t there over Lahore in 71 as in 65” . Cities are irrelevant metric, strategic assets and positions are. From that perspective symbolic places are important to overall national morale and it is highly unlikely they will be sacrificed but if it turns out an Indian fighter strolled over Lahore and the Hq9 or anything else didn’t fire or respond immediately because they were directed to more important strategic objectives then the same idiots will go whining.
There's a debate going on the sidelines of the HQ-9 induction regarding air defence in Karachi and Lahore. Team Lahore has gone a bit sentimental talking about the cultural and historical significance of Lahore and it being a population hub, basically all of the things that don't matter in air defence.

First, let's analyze what air defence is primarily used to defend:
- Airbases
- Defence Production Facilities
- Cantonments
- Strategic Infrastructure
- Arms Depots
- Nuclear facilities.

Now, let's do the required comparison.

Lahore

IV Corps HQ
Lahore Cantt
Allama Iqbal International Airport
Karachi-Peshawar Railway Line
Major Locomotive Works

Karachi

V Corps HQ
Karachi Cantt
Malir Cantt
Jinnah International Airport
PAF Base Malir
PAF Base Korangi Creek
PAF Airbase Faisal (Karachi's airbases are tasked with defence of Southern Sindh)
PAF Airbase Masroor (All of PAF's Naval Squadrons)
PAF Airbase Bholari (close proximity)
Port of Karachi
Port of Bin Qasim
Petroleum Facilities at Port Bin Qasim
Beginning Point of Karachi-Peshawar Railway Line
Karachi Shipyard And Engineering Works
PN Facilities at Manora
Navy Dockyards (Primary Naval Base, a little searching on Google Maps would make clear its importance)
Kanupp II and III
Major installations related to our jawab if India goes naughty

I understand that the Karachi-Lahore rivalry will never die, but please leave your petty sympathies and politics at home when discussing defense. O7.


Sidenote:
All areas of Pakistan deserve to be defended equally :). This post was just a comparison to make clear priorities.
Na na.. they can’t get over “Lahore Lahore ay” and it will be next to kufr to admit they are wrong without realizing the overall strategic implications of where one concentrates assets. Interestingly, the coverage map I put as hypothetical does actually cover lahore as it falls under the umbrella of other key strategic sites the HQ-9 could protect.
Your little insecurities and genocidal tendencies wouldn't do that much good to you! :azn:. It's useless to argue with your insanity. Around 1/5th of the Pakistan's population lives in 2 big cities and you are willing to sacrifice them for what? It's not 1940s or 60s anymore.

For rest of the members:
A country like Pakistan who has to threaten to attack another small country thousands of kilometers away just for its own survival, while having highly questionable power projection attributes of those sorts defines the posture it has to continuously maintain to survive.

Pakistan since its inception has been severely at the disadvantage in terms of the size of its military, land mass and available manpower against its much larger next door rival, India. To counter that disadvantage we have survived this long by just sheer aggression, firepower and preemptive strikes into enemy's territories. Countless Great Men have sacrificed their lives to attack indian military infrastructure within hostile territory to blunt their attack and fought valiantly to defend their homeland and people.

Present Situation:
For past few decades Pakistan has been in major geographical and demographical dilemma. Most of our major population centers, major cities, vital civilian and military infrastructure is very close to the eastern border and under ever increasing danger of being wiped out due to proliferation of advanced missiles, land and air launched stand off precision guided weapons in the region for the past few decades.

The balance of military size, population and landmass depth would already be massively in India's favor and there isn't much left for us to afford to loose nor we would have the space to make any mistake in any calculations or commit blunders. Militaries around the globe are kept and paid to defend and fight.

If we wish to ever win against that huge enemy then we would have to take out 10 of their civilians for each of our civilian casualty and 7 of their soldiers against each of our soldier get martyred to shift that huge imbalance to somewhat in our favor. Similar conditions applies to equipment and infrastructure losses. That's why aggression is a compulsion to survive. That's why we had to do nuclear tests in response and recently destroy their trees in response to the loss of our trees ;). And developed full spectrum nuclear deterrence including tactical Nuclear missiles. We don't have any effective reserves or vast landmass to maneuver and keep retreating to. All of our force is committed at or very near the front lines.

Pakistan has many fault lines and vulnerabilities due to the aforementioned reasons. And if India ever manages to inflict damage at massive scale or incursions slightly deep into our territory then there would be no point of return for Pakistan. The balance of power would shift further more towards India. If India manages to do China cuttings within Pakistan's territory then a domino effect would ensue further and it won't stop anytime soon. They wouldn't have to attack your beloved concrete of Port or its adjacent factory or a road leading to it. It would be game over by then. Conventional militaries aren't that much efficient in fighting like resistance guerilla war style and guerilla warfare is an insult and disgrace by itself. Massive losses in men, equipment and/or land witout being able to inflict damage at least half a dozen times more in return then its already game over. Wars dont tend to last long in this part of the continent.

And after all this if you somehow mange to survive and gain control of couple of towns in Rajhistan desert. It won't be that much of intrinsic value to trade them with far more better territories of Punjab in post war negotiations.

And that concludes my last post in response. Hope sanity prevails.
Aww .. did I hurt your feelings that you nearly bludgeoned your keyboard to death?
Look, Im sure there will be ample air defense coverage for Lahore so you and family can be safe.. go hug them and fear not.
 

Huffal

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It all stems from the old “PAF wasn’t there over Lahore in 71 as in 65” . Cities are irrelevant metric, strategic assets and positions are. From that perspective symbolic places are important to overall national morale and it is highly unlikely they will be sacrificed but if it turns out an Indian fighter strolled over Lahore and the Hq9 or anything else didn’t fire or respond immediately because they were directed to more important strategic objectives then the same idiots will go whining.

Na na.. they can’t get over “Lahore Lahore ay” and it will be next to kufr to admit they are wrong without realizing the overall strategic implications of where one concentrates assets. Interestingly, the coverage map I put as hypothetical does actually cover lahore as it falls under the umbrella of other key strategic sites the HQ-9 could protect.

Aww .. did I hurt your feelings that you nearly bludgeoned your keyboard to death?
Look, Im sure there will be ample air defense coverage for Lahore so you and family can be safe.. go hug them and fear not.
Last time i went to Lahore i saw a horse fall over and break its neck... It was so weird and casual how it happened
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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It seems good development for us.

We are getting an equalizer.

But it is also important to remember that WEAPON just complicates the matter for enemy. If enemy is motivated or hell bent, he can circumvent any weapon you throw at him.

Air Defence Missile Units have their counter weapons. Think of Turkish Koral Systems or Dedicated EW platforms notorious for jamming Ground Missile Units.

KORAL is a land-based transportable electronic warfare system developed to jam and deceive hostile radars of enemy nations. It is designed and manufactured by Aselsan, a Turkish corporation that produces electronic systems for the Turkish Armed Forces.



-------

Furthermore, It seems we are getting Chinese Weapons for all of our 3 branches of armed forces. We are becoming small China in a military sense. The enemies of China may take great interest in checking things here and there so Pakistan needs to be vigilant and smart.

India may become a tool if not already in this regard to test out Chinese stuff.

Good thing is that Chinese are keeping Indians engaged in Himalayas :)
SIPER is the Area Air Defence of Strategic Facilities against enemy attacks at Long Range and in distributed architecture. Project is being conducted in partnership with ASELSAN, ROKETSAN and TÜBİTAK SAGE.

PAF+PN may go for it, especially when the situations gets hot and dynamic....



 
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Shotgunner51

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I think we can settle that this is the HQ-9BE, it wouldn't be anything else really.
Hey bro, yes several senior observers on Chinese blogs share the same view. It is the same production run with PLA's active duty HQ-9B, customized accordingly in say C&C interfaces, language and likely data-link. Despite these minor differences, B and P are in fact the same thing, interoperable and share almost exactly the same supply chain.

As for the reason why it has been kept in the dark for years, I guess it gotta do with the fact that HQ-9P itself is a high value target. Now that a multi-layered AD network is in shape, HQ-9P as last piece of the puzzle could be publicized.

Cheers!
 
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Kharral

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It all stems from the old “PAF wasn’t there over Lahore in 71 as in 65” . Cities are irrelevant metric, strategic assets and positions are. From that perspective symbolic places are important to overall national morale and it is highly unlikely they will be sacrificed but if it turns out an Indian fighter strolled over Lahore and the Hq9 or anything else didn’t fire or respond immediately because they were directed to more important strategic objectives then the same idiots will go whining.

Na na.. they can’t get over “Lahore Lahore ay” and it will be next to kufr to admit they are wrong without realizing the overall strategic implications of where one concentrates assets. Interestingly, the coverage map I put as hypothetical does actually cover lahore as it falls under the umbrella of other key strategic sites the HQ-9 could protect.

Aww .. did I hurt your feelings that you nearly bludgeoned your keyboard to death?
Look, Im sure there will be ample air defense coverage for Lahore so you and family can be safe.. go hug them and fear not.
If I had my way, I would happily & deliberately sacrifice the populace of Lahore for the greater good of the country.

This ll probably be the very first & the last Sacrifice that Laborites ever made for Pakistan.
 

DocEinstein

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Instead of assuming that the Pakistans HQ-9P is the most rubbish relic from Chinese scrapyard of missiles, I rather assume its the BE version.
And in that case the entire Prithvi series of missiles which were specifically made with Pakistan in mind, is now thing of the past.
Keeping in mind that the Chinese have a lot to focus on at the present time (US/England/Australia/ Japan/Taiwan) rather than an insignificant mosquito like India, however that buzzing is still a distraction and therefore they need a mosquito swatter on their flanks. Thus I am sure that this HQ-9 system is going to be close to the best that they can offer. Unless it was a system purchased 4-5 years ago and details just being made public as is usual with PA. (Not a bad thing at all however circumstances matter ! )
If a chinese made battery exported to Pakistan dies in 6 months or an AC unit/ refrigerator in 18 months, It is because Chinese manufacturers intended them to have exactly that lifespan ( a long discussion about the merits of importing everything "cheap" from china and its impact on the economy of Pakistan and the mental and economic wellbeing of Pakistanis in the long run ).
However with the current geopolitical situation, I am pretty certain that the chinese need Pakistan to have reliable equipment to stay in-game and have their back also.
Pakistan has always been giving more than it receives (Stupid policies and digging own grave aside).
Thank you establishment, policy makers, elements in army, Judiciary, POLITICIANS.
 
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waz

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Hey bro, yes several senior observers on Chinese blogs share the same view. It is the same production run with PLA's active duty HQ-9B, customized accordingly in say C&C interfaces, language and likely data-link. Despite these minor differences, B and P are in fact the same thing, interoperable and share almost exactly the same supply chain.

As for the reason why it has been keep in the dark for years, I guess it gotta do with the fact that HQ-9P itself is a high value target. Now that a multi-layered AD network is in shape, HQ-9P as last piece of the puzzle could be publicized.

Cheers!
What's up bro! Good to see you posting here. Thank you for the confirmation which pretty must solidifies what many have written i.e. it's the latest system.
I hope Pakistan goes for the next 'C' version as well. I'm not sure how much can be upgraded from the current 'B' version.
Indian butt hurt is epic. Just read this tweet from miss India 😅😅😅😅

View attachment 785805
This bimbo is honestly too stupid to even respond to. Rejected yet the system is in PLA use in multiple theatres and other countries. It won the Turkish tender. It's been described by western defence writers as a very capable system.


If China has indeed deployed such an advanced surface-to-air missile system, why would it choose Woody Island in the Paracels and not, say, one of the Spratly Islands?

The HQ-9 is a fourth-generation surface to air missile (SAM) system. While not the most advanced SAM system in the world, if it has indeed been deployed to Woody Island then this would be the most advanced long range air defense missile currently deployed to an island in the South China Sea.

The HQ-9 is capable of engaging multiple aircraft, including combat aircraft. It resembles the Russian S300 system but China is assessed to have developed variants of the system with a longer range, potentially up to 230 kilometers.





She should stick to trawling through dating sites to bag that western boyfriend she yearns for so much.
 
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DJ_Viper

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There's a debate going on the sidelines of the HQ-9 induction regarding air defence in Karachi and Lahore. Team Lahore has gone a bit sentimental talking about the cultural and historical significance of Lahore and it being a population hub, basically all of the things that don't matter in air defence.

First, let's analyze what air defence is primarily used to defend:
- Airbases
- Defence Production Facilities
- Cantonments
- Strategic Infrastructure
- Arms Depots
- Nuclear facilities.

Now, let's do the required comparison.

Lahore

IV Corps HQ
Lahore Cantt
Allama Iqbal International Airport
Karachi-Peshawar Railway Line
Major Locomotive Works

Karachi

V Corps HQ
Karachi Cantt
Malir Cantt
Jinnah International Airport
PAF Base Malir
PAF Base Korangi Creek
PAF Airbase Faisal (Karachi's airbases are tasked with defence of Southern Sindh)
PAF Airbase Masroor (All of PAF's Naval Squadrons)
PAF Airbase Bholari (close proximity)
Port of Karachi
Port of Bin Qasim
Petroleum Facilities at Port Bin Qasim
Beginning Point of Karachi-Peshawar Railway Line
Karachi Shipyard And Engineering Works
PN Facilities at Manora
Navy Dockyards (Primary Naval Base, a little searching on Google Maps would make clear its importance)
Kanupp II and III
Major installations related to our jawab if India goes naughty

I understand that the Karachi-Lahore rivalry will never die, but please leave your petty sympathies and politics at home when discussing defense. O7.


Sidenote:
All areas of Pakistan deserve to be defended equally :). This post was just a comparison to make clear priorities.
The little that I understand Pakistan's strategic forces, when the word Lahore is used, it's really 50-70 miles before it. Now if you drew the radius, you'd be surprised what it covers. Unless things have changed since my understanding of key installations. The Karachi does have the most differentiating factor being the only port in Pakistan and having PN presence. That certainly would get priority. But Lahore does get the second priority and would get a lot more priority (second to Karachi) if the system was 300KM. Draw a circle from 50-70 KM's before Lahore and see what areas it covers and draw a bigger one (300 KM) 150 KM before Lahore and see how many super sensitive areas that covers. I am willing to put money down that the 100 KM range is either to keep things classified, or, for now. The system will be upgraded to 300 KM if not already 300km.

Also, if I was Pakistan, I'd have tried to negotiate the HQ-19, the state of the art system with low atmospheric reach / ASAT / ABM, sort of equivalent to the US THAAD and if I could either license produce this in Pakistan or get ToT, Pakistan would start building the SAM / ABM industry internally and knowledge base with a very advance system.
 
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Shotgunner51

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What's up bro! Good to see you posting here. Thank you for the confirmation which pretty must solidifies what many have written i.e. it's the latest system.
I hope Pakistan goes for the next 'C' version as well. I'm not sure how much can be upgraded from the current 'B' version.
Thanks bro, damn it's so good to see my old pals here! Feel like family! Will join conversations whenever I'm free!

I guess big bosses (on both sides) have reached consensus on this matter, i.e. interoperability, and if that's the case then keeping equipment sync and afresh would be natural. After all AD is a networked exercise, pooling as much data as possible, from all sensors available whether from ground air or space or even web, helps formulate the best engagement tactics for commanders sitting behind the screens to choose.
 

The Terminator

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Our vulnerability of having the majority of our population within 100 miles of the indian border can also be a very big benefit in war mobilization. We will be able to mobilize far more men/equipment to the front lines than the Indians can. just look at Indias population density/ its highway/rail network. It will take them far longer to get the same number of troops/equipment to their border compared to Pakistan.

Also in previous wars the fact that major cities such as Lahore/Sialkot were on the front lines motivated the whole nation to fight even more. Compared to the indians who were dreaming about chai in lahore.

In the next indo-pak conflict you can bet major indian cities such as Delhi, Mumbai, and even Bangalore will be struck hard ie major military bases and infrastructure.
Agreed. FIGHTING against the enemy near suburbs or urban areas would greatly benefit the defending forces. But on the flip side modern rocket artillery, short range cruise/ballistic missiles and air launched stand off weapons pose a big huge issue for us as there could be massive exchanges of those long range precision guided weapons across the border in an all out war and having major population centers and vital infrastructure within 100-200 km of the border makes it a bit more vulnerable and complicated as well for us.

But nevertheless having a credible multi layered air defense, well dug in defensive positions, a robust airforce and large scale preemptive strikes inside enemy's territories would be a great deterrent.

The fate of the battles would be decided in the air and results then would be sealed on the ground.
 

Shotgunner51

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That's a modified variant of, or as poster may prefer the term upgraded, HQ-9 series, land-based. Naval version HQ-26. Payload replaced by KKV, and it uses larger booster to reach low earth orbits, and that's one reason why the silos onboard 055 are very deep. Compared to AD, the ABM/ASAT exercise employs a largely different infra say orbital based recon & tracking, as well as precision computing somewhere in the network, so that's another investment.
 

SQ8

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If I had my way, I would happily & deliberately sacrifice the populace of Lahore for the greater good of the country.

This ll probably be the very first & the last Sacrifice that Laborites ever made for Pakistan.
I don’t focus on the people - its as was described earlier a matter of strategic calculations that take the holistic perspective of Pakistan’s gains into account.
Lahore isn’t going to fall as such because HQ-9s don’t cover its airspace - there is a lot more that goes into compromising a large metropolitan area including the behavior of its population vis-à-vis civil defense.
 

The Terminator

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Did Pakistan get HQ9A? There should be ToT and mass production of a capable SAM and a couple of BVR missiles.
Can't indulge in complex nomenclature schemes. But it can be safely assumed by observing earlier posts' cross referencing of images by fellow PDF members here that Pakistan got one of the latest HQ-9 in Chinese service today. And it's designated AS HQ-9P :cheers:
 

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