Pakistan Navy upgrading type zulfiquar class frigate

[Super Falcon]

What are you on about.. These jets will be toasted before they even reach our shores

Howthey will since india might send Su 30 with brahmos which air defence system will toast them fm 90 is medium altitude

 

[Salza]

Howthey will since india might send Su 30 with brahmos which air defence system will toast them fm 90 is medium altitude

and PAF will sit down and watch with a popcorn ?

 

[Primus]

Howthey will since india might send Su 30 with brahmos which air defence system will toast them fm 90 is medium altitude

j
PAF will deny them the ability to launch their Brahmos. Brahmos will most likely be launched from their ships rather than the air.

 

[JawadKKhan]

What are you on about.. These jets will be toasted before they even reach our shores

That's only true, if war has began and PAF is already providing air-cover to Navy. However, a 24/7 air-cover is very difficult to obtain if the war proceeds for longer duration. In a full scale war, attrition happens. We should be prepared to take and absorb attrition.

However, If the adversary do an ambush (a surprise attack) and release air launched super sonic missiles towards any of the ships then only thing stopping them is ship's point defense systems. At one given time there can never be enough Air Patrol. Only few aircrafts are fueled and ready for ADA (Air defense alert), not whole fleet. So if enemy does an ambush then there will be attrition and some missiles will be stopped by point defense and some will not) .

That's just one hypothetical scenario, war theatre changes rapidly, if adversary gain some ground at one area, you do not have to force everything to protect that. You can attack somewhere else. This what they train for in war-games. Pakistan has plethora of options to attack.

j
PAF will deny them the ability to launch their Brahmos. Brahmos will most likely be launched from their ships rather than the air.

I think Air-launched is more effective for ambush. Ships sail slow, can be detected by Sea patrols. Aircrafts can also be detected, but they give way less reaction time. There is simply not enough time to scramble jets in face of supersonic jets releasing super sonic payload. Just like 26th, they were able to release payload, however it missed the target. its not that PAF isn't ready. PAF is completely ready but with supersonic SOWs carried by supersonic jets and immediate proximity (both countries immediate neighbors).. Its impossible for india to stop PAF from launching SOWs (as happened on 27th feb, PAF demonstrated this at highest level of IAF air-alert) and Pakistan to stop quick ambush..

That's why H-QP / LY-80s are great inductions. That's why S-400 is so important for india as their state of art Rafales cannot remain airborne always or will take several minutes to scramble if PAF have to do something.

That's why long range air-defense for Pakistan navy is important. Especially for our ports and Naval bases where we stock most of our Naval assets.

Howthey will since india might send Su 30 with brahmos which air defence system will toast them fm 90 is medium altitude

In war times, F22Ps will surely remain under air-cover of Tughrils & Baburs. That's in addition to PAF cover. But yes a surprise / ambush with no air-cover can be deadly.

 

[Basel]

Can this SAM be better replacement of FM-90s??

 

[CSAW]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1576479282343256065

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1563620420007636993

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1393950366178463747

 

[Super Falcon]

News is these zulfiqar frigates will get CAMM NG surface to air missile upgrades

 

[Basel]

News is these zulfiqar frigates will get CAMM NG surface to air missile upgrades

If true it's big news as it can only be done when western electronics are installed on the ship, which radar will be installed to guide them?

 

[arslank03]

If true it's big news as it can only be done when western electronics are installed on the ship, which radar will be installed to guide them?

as an MLU it isnt impossible, the radars and systems onboard are not great anyway.

Aside from that, the base ship the f22p was developed from was the 053h3, the RTN have a variant with MK41 and western electronics, the narusean class frigates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naresuan-class_frigate

 

[Basel]

as an MLU it isnt impossible, the radars and systems onboard are not great anyway.

Aside from that, the base ship the f22p was developed from was the 053h3, the RTN have a variant with MK41 and western electronics, the narusean class frigates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naresuan-class_frigate

It depends what PN want, if they are going for CAMM-ER route then Babur class electronics may end up in F-22Ps.

 

[syed_yusuf]

It depends what PN want, if they are going for CAMM-ER route then Babur class electronics may end up in F-22Ps.

i highly doubt it will happen. PN will be better off ordering more type54ap or babur class and retire f22p to MSA roles

 

[Tank131]

News is these zulfiqar frigates will get CAMM NG surface to air missile upgrades

Would love it if this were true. I have clamored for this for a few years. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can attest that i prayed the CAMM-ER into existence. Problem is would they utilize the standard vls (single pack) which would allow for probably 12-16 missiles or can they go get a Sylver A50 or Mk-41 and get 32 missiles out of a quad packed 8 cell system.

If true it's big news as it can only be done when western electronics are installed on the ship, which radar will be installed to guide them?

I would imagine they would use Smart S Mk-II. The C28s of Algeria are based on F-22P but utilize this radar. Put them through a Genesis upgrade by installing GENESIS Advent CMS.

as an MLU it isnt impossible, the radars and systems onboard are not great anyway.

Aside from that, the base ship the f22p was developed from was the 053h3, the RTN have a variant with MK41 and western electronics, the narusean class frigates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naresuan-class_frigate

There is definitely space for an 8 cell Sylver A50 or Mk41 as you pointed out. Even if the A50 or Mk41 is not obtainable, 12-16 cells of the standard CAMM launcher likely are.

i highly doubt it will happen. PN will be better off ordering more type54ap or babur class and retire f22p to MSA roles

The Babur class is $375M/ship. The 054A is ~$350M/ship. Replacing 4 relatively young frigates could possibly cost significantly more than upgrading them to a modern standard though it may be more than many suspect. The upgrade would likely involve changing weapons from C-802A to CM-302, adding Aselsans Smart S-mk2, GENESIS Advent, and installing and a vls (be it sylver, or CAMM launcher) may infact be too much. The RNZN recently upgraded 2 of their Anzac Frigates with a very similar upgrade, by changing the missiles from Sea Sparrow to CAMM, though they already had Mk41 launchers to begin with, but they also changed the CMS and added Thales' Smart S mk2 and other sensors to a tune of $770M (originally was supposed to cost $441M). That said the upgrades ran over time and over budget and were done in Canada (notoriously high labor cost). If these upgrades can be done in Pakistan, i suspect the cost could be ~$200-250M/ship. The question is with the wear on these ships, is it worth it... The ship brand new cost $175M, so spending 200M may not seem really worth it in the end. The question will be whats the real cost of the upgrade and what is the time frame of upgrade vs delivery of new construction.

 

[ziaulislam]

i highly doubt it will happen. PN will be better off ordering more type54ap or babur class and retire f22p to MSA roles

that depends ..i doubt the cost of adding few CAMM ER is high enought o warrant new ships that will need CAMM too.
The system is light and will replace the current SAM, ships are relatively new with <20 yrs

 

[Tank131]

that depends ..i doubt the cost of adding few CAMM ER is high enought o warrant new ships that will need CAMM too.
The system is light and will replace the current SAM, ships are relatively new with <20 yrs

Again refitting Anzac frigates cost NZ nearly $350M/ship with nearly the exact layout we are suggesting. Though CMS for Pakistan would be GENESIS rather than Lockheed and upgrade would be done in Pakistan not Canada. With that said Anzacs already had VLS where as in F-22p case the VLS will need to be installed after FM-90 is removed. A 21 cell FL-3000N may be more cost effective (though not as potent as CAMM-ER).

 

[Super Falcon]

Would love it if this were true. I have clamored for this for a few years. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can attest that i prayed the CAMM-ER into existence. Problem is would they utilize the standard vls (single pack) which would allow for probably 12-16 missiles or can they go get a Sylver A50 or Mk-41 and get 32 missiles out of a quad packed 8 cell system.

I would imagine they would use Smart S Mk-II. The C28s of Algeria are based on F-22P but utilize this radar. Put them through a Genesis upgrade by installing GENESIS Advent CMS.


There is definitely space for an 8 cell Sylver A50 or Mk41 as you pointed out. Even if the A50 or Mk41 is not obtainable, 12-16 cells of the standard CAMM launcher likely are.


The Babur class is $375M/ship. The 054A is ~$350M/ship. Replacing 4 relatively young frigates could possibly cost significantly more than upgrading them to a modern standard though it may be more than many suspect. The upgrade would likely involve changing weapons from C-802A to CM-302, adding Aselsans Smart S-mk2, GENESIS Advent, and installing and a vls (be it sylver, or CAMM launcher) may infact be too much. The RNZN recently upgraded 2 of their Anzac Frigates with a very similar upgrade, by changing the missiles from Sea Sparrow to CAMM, though they already had Mk41 launchers to begin with, but they also changed the CMS and added Thales' Smart S mk2 and other sensors to a tune of $770M (originally was supposed to cost $441M). That said the upgrades ran over time and over budget and were done in Canada (notoriously high labor cost). If these upgrades can be done in Pakistan, i suspect the cost could be ~$200-250M/ship. The question is with the wear on these ships, is it worth it... The ship brand new cost $175M, so spending 200M may not seem really worth it in the end. The question will be whats the real cost of the upgrade and what is the time frame of upgrade vs delivery of new construction.

I think they will dismount FM 90 and do some restructuring in front of ship to get vls installed remember CAMM Er are not very big in size can easily be fitted in small sized vls in zulfiqar frigates