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Featured Pakistan Navy Type 054AP Frigates - Update, News & Discussion

khanasifm

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These should be retired as soon as the second Type-54A is commissioned and perhaps used as target for type-54A testing exercises.
Remember, 4 of the type 21's already retired even when no type-54 or babur ever inducted that means how badly PN wants to get rid of those totally junk ships.
Th EY could use vital spares from 4 retired ships to continue using the two ship who knows
 

JawadKKhan

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Th EY could use vital spares from 4 retired ships to continue using the two ship who knows

Unlikely, as the remaining 2 ships have absolutely no Anti-shipping capability. They host totally outdated SAM. There's no point for Navy to keep them. They pose no offensive punch at all, not to subs, not to air and not to surface ships. They were only being used to keep numbers and usual patrolling. That's more cost effectively now being done by Damen OPVs which are also not weaponized yet for combat.
 

araz

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Jun 14, 2006
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Flight computers from Israeli Aircraft Industries
Add CFTs for the 52+ to the list as well. I wont go as far as saying we have no problems with Israel but CURRENTLY it is far down the line in our threat matrix.
A
 

JawadKKhan

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I think with Jinnah class coming online PN will concentrate its resources on that project. With the current development projections PN will have its hands full till well into 2028-30 time frame with manpower and other developments. Unless somehow money starts growing on trees we will ne8ther have the finances nor the man power to do any more than what has been planned till 2030.
My humble opinion take it for what it is worth.
I also think once the Jinnah class is inducted the PN will get at least 3 destroyers.

A
I think PN will just make 1 jinnah class with Turkey's help and will NOT be able to fully utilize the project. Saying this because of totally failed ToT experiences of Navy till now.

1) Agosta Subs: We paid twice the amount for the project specifically for ToT, so we could built more when needed. More subs were critically needed, but forget about building more- We can't even upgrade them ourselves. 2 decades later went to China for massive 5 billions USD (don't know how much exactly is ToT) 8 which are in the initial agreement will be made (4 in china, 4 in karachi with chinese assistance and Im sure Navy won't be able to build 9th one ever on its own)

2) F-22Ps: Again did ToT. Why not built more?. type21s needed to replaced, If PN had talent, will, integrity, some sort of innovation and skill level, they could have built an advanced version of F-22Ps perhaps F-23Ps or whatever replacing old weapons with newer. Ofcourse they could import VLS / weapon sets / sensors from china but atleast could have done basic ship structure in-house.

3) Azmat class FAC: First this FAC is not impressive at all. It should have been more stealthy and faster. Secondly, Why do you need ToT for each and every thing ???. You already got ToT for much bigger ship F-22Ps, you couldn't even build smaller FAC ??? BTW! technologies keep evolving, you can't just keep doing ToT after every few years, you need to innovate yourselves otherwise this cycle will never end.

4) Jinnah class: Seeing above experiences of navy everytime with ToT gives me an expression that they need a lot of organizational improvement. I have great confidence in PAF as they make use of partnerships. Various JF-17s built and being used, Super mushaks even being exported etc. But Navy has disappointed, even Chief of Naval staff stole millions of dollars of this nation. Navy's totally non-professional official website: https://www.paknavy.gov.pk/ shows me reflection of their caliber. I am actually frustrated on navy's track record of projects. I wonder after all these ToT agreements they haven't ever produced a single locally designed decent ship, they should have been able to build atleast mid size corvettes. Ofcourse they could import critical / complex components from China but atleast show some capability / some use of all those ToTs done in past. Where the hell massive millions of dollars went ?

Once someone told me that ToT agreements are easy money making for those involved in the deals, that's stuck with me. I hope, i am wrong.
 

AZADPAKISTAN2009

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I think PN will just make 1 jinnah class with Turkey's help and will NOT be able to fully utilize the project. Saying this because of totally failed ToT experiences of Navy till now.

1) Agosta Subs: We paid twice the amount for the project specifically for ToT, so we could built more when needed. More subs were critically needed, but forget about building more- We can't even upgrade them ourselves. 2 decades later went to China for massive 5 billions USD (don't know how much exactly is ToT) 8 which are in the initial agreement will be made (4 in china, 4 in karachi with chinese assistance and Im sure Navy won't be able to build 9th one ever on its own)

2) F-22Ps: Again did ToT. Why not built more?. type21s needed to replaced, If PN had talent, will, integrity, some sort of innovation and skill level, they could have built an advanced version of F-22Ps perhaps F-23Ps or whatever replacing old weapons with newer. Ofcourse they could import VLS / weapon sets / sensors from china but atleast could have done basic ship structure in-house.

3) Azmat class FAC: First this FAC is not impressive at all. It should have been more stealthy and faster. Secondly, Why do you need ToT for each and every thing ???. You already got ToT for much bigger ship F-22Ps, you couldn't even build smaller FAC ??? BTW! technologies keep evolving, you can't just keep doing ToT after every few years, you need to innovate yourselves otherwise this cycle will never end.

4) Jinnah class: Seeing above experiences of navy everytime with ToT gives me an expression that they need a lot of organizational improvement. I have great confidence in PAF as they make use of partnerships. Various JF-17s built and being used, Super mushaks even being exported etc. But Navy has disappointed, even Chief of Naval staff stole millions of dollars of this nation. Navy's totally non-professional official website: https://www.paknavy.gov.pk/ shows me reflection of their caliber. I am actually frustrated on navy's track record of projects. I wonder after all these ToT agreements they haven't ever produced a single locally designed decent ship, they should have been able to build atleast mid size corvettes. Ofcourse they could import critical / complex components from China but atleast show some capability / some use of all those ToTs done in past. Where the hell massive millions of dollars went ?

Once someone told me that ToT agreements are easy money making for those involved in the deals, that's stuck with me. I hope, i am wrong.


I sort of agree, the emphasis made on Transfer of Knowledge or Technology while it materializes for various projects but we have not taken initiative and expanded the full scope of Engineering to expand the force

  • When you do develop continuously knowledge is maintained as younger crew is trained on how to construct with technology.
  • When you don't construct, then people retire and knowledge is lost

Transfer of Technology Projects
  1. In 80's we made some missile boats under Transfer of Technology scheme only 2 were made
  2. Khalid Tanks TOT project but our speed of manufacturing was too slow
    • Then we had to import engine from outside
  3. Agosta Submarine Project after the 3rd Submarine only 3were made
    • It was deemed a successful project at time and people thought we will make 5 more submarines but nothing happened after the 3rd Submarine
  4. JF17 Thunder was Successful as we continued to Train Engineers out of necessity as we need to cover retirement of many planes
  5. Azmat Class , project slowed down after the 4th Ship and now it is crawling instead of the 8th ship being release
    • 2 Were made efficiently and then productivity slowed in 3rd ship and 4th has taken much longer
  6. F22P , we did not construct 5th ship by ourselves went for Type054 ships
  7. Now we are aiming to build Jinnah Class Frigates after 2025

Imported Ships
  1. OPV ships made with tremendous speed and derived on Time
  2. Type054 was constructed in China at Excellent Speed
  3. Milgem is moving a bit slowly but it's a new project for Turkey

How do you validate if you gained new knowledge ?
  • Of Course you have to construct new designs from knowledge you gained ? But there is no such push, from yearly budget, this is why the old knowledge is lost.
 
Last edited:

Pandora

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I think PN will just make 1 jinnah class with Turkey's help and will NOT be able to fully utilize the project. Saying this because of totally failed ToT experiences of Navy till now.

1) Agosta Subs: We paid twice the amount for the project specifically for ToT, so we could built more when needed. More subs were critically needed, but forget about building more- We can't even upgrade them ourselves. 2 decades later went to China for massive 5 billions USD (don't know how much exactly is ToT) 8 which are in the initial agreement will be made (4 in china, 4 in karachi with chinese assistance and Im sure Navy won't be able to build 9th one ever on its own)

2) F-22Ps: Again did ToT. Why not built more?. type21s needed to replaced, If PN had talent, will, integrity, some sort of innovation and skill level, they could have built an advanced version of F-22Ps perhaps F-23Ps or whatever replacing old weapons with newer. Ofcourse they could import VLS / weapon sets / sensors from china but atleast could have done basic ship structure in-house.

3) Azmat class FAC: First this FAC is not impressive at all. It should have been more stealthy and faster. Secondly, Why do you need ToT for each and every thing ???. You already got ToT for much bigger ship F-22Ps, you couldn't even build smaller FAC ??? BTW! technologies keep evolving, you can't just keep doing ToT after every few years, you need to innovate yourselves otherwise this cycle will never end.

4) Jinnah class: Seeing above experiences of navy everytime with ToT gives me an expression that they need a lot of organizational improvement. I have great confidence in PAF as they make use of partnerships. Various JF-17s built and being used, Super mushaks even being exported etc. But Navy has disappointed, even Chief of Naval staff stole millions of dollars of this nation. Navy's totally non-professional official website: https://www.paknavy.gov.pk/ shows me reflection of their caliber. I am actually frustrated on navy's track record of projects. I wonder after all these ToT agreements they haven't ever produced a single locally designed decent ship, they should have been able to build atleast mid size corvettes. Ofcourse they could import critical / complex components from China but atleast show some capability / some use of all those ToTs done in past. Where the hell massive millions of dollars went ?

Once someone told me that ToT agreements are easy money making for those involved in the deals, that's stuck with me. I hope, i am wrong.

I think people take ToT part of agreement a but too wrong. ToT in most defense agreements simply mean transfer of maintenance and overhauling facilities to Pakistan. Also it allows us to tweek the said defence equipment without having to take permission from OEM.
Take example of germans who denied us proper ToT in the subs during negotiations but french gave it when we negotiated with them for Augusta subs. Now Pakistan has been maintaining all Augusta subs on its own without having to send them to OEM for overhaul and maintenance. Our contract with STM Turkey is being carried out in Pakistan which reflects that we have the facilities to carry out some critical overhaul and integration for submarines all thanks to ToT we got from France.

If you think logically why an OEM will provide full ToT? They spend billions on research and development so why would they give it to Pakistan for only fraction of cost. As i said ToT part is very misunderstood.
 

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