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Featured Pakistan Navy prevented Indian Submarine from entering into Pakistani waters on 16th October

LeGenD

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Good display of vigilance by Pakistan Navy (PN). :tup:

Some members complained that the intrusive submarine should have been engaged and destroyed even though it was noticed operating much further from Pakistani territorial waters (stretching up to 12 NM from land) at the time of intercept.

My take is that a response should be 'measured' and PN made the right call in view of its observations. WE should engage/kill/destroy when absolutely necessary.

There are also speculations about what can and cannot be detected. I would say that nothing is certain. There are statements and then there are interpretations.

See my explanation below.

If it was with consent no problem but if the US acted irrationally and parked it, their are millions of ways of blowing it up and making it look like an accident. Military needs to learn how to lay the bait. But time and time again it disappoints me greatly.
Friend, your POV is not practical. Such an attempt will lead to war and I do not have to explain further. What a member might tell you is open to interpretation and inconclusive. Never jump to conclusion on mere statements.

One revelation is that an Ohio-class was involved in Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) which was launched in 2001; in what capacity is unclear. But it shall be kept in mind that OEF was launched with Pakistani consent.

Americans surprised Pakistan on 02-05-11 with Operation Neptune Spear (ONS) - you may say acted irrationally on this day. They came prepared for eventualities though, and there were 'reports' of some of the United States Navy (USN) submarines loitering around. These 'reports' could be from Western sources at a later stage; I have seen a source as well which provided a wider overview of developments on this day. I do not recall Pakistani reports in relation; PN said nothing in relation either.

Ohio-class is not a frequent visitor to Pakistani waters and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) - its activity in these waters is not even news on the web.

If an Ohio-class is noticed operating near a country (or hostile forces) then this was intentional to send a message:

"The Iranian Navy claims that the American submarine was operating close to where it has been conducting a major exercise this week and that it left after being detected. It's extremely rare to see U.S. Navy submarines sailing so close to the surface like this anywhere in the world, let alone in any sort of proximity to potential hostile forces."


Islamic Republic of Iran Navy (IRIN) and United States Navy (USN) do not have a working relationship but Iran had to show restraint.

Pakistan Navy (PN) and USN have a working relationship on the other hand.

- - - -

In case of hostilities, an Ohio-class is equipped to strike at a country from considerable distance(s). There is no need to park it very close to a country. It can arrive in Arabian Sea without warning because it is nuclear powered and there is no need to operate it at periscope depth. It can unload its payload on designated targets while submerged. It has significant passive sensor technology and techniques to mask its acoustics in order to avoid detection from a distance. There are too many unknowns in this case.

"By virtue of their concealment and endurance, the SSGN platform forces our adversaries to consider that they could be operating almost anywhere at any time. The sensor suite on the boat allows the captain to gather information and intelligence in situ, passing that back to the commander and responding on the spot. When you combine all that with the tremendous combat capability the boat brings – land attack missiles, special forces, torpedoes – that's a lot of bets the enemy has to cover down on." - Vice Admiral John Richardson

- - - -

If a submarine uses active sonar while operating close to a country with maritime surveillance capabilities, it can give its position. If not then it will be difficult to detect and track unless its acoustics are known.

PN have fairly good knowledge of Scorpene-class and its acoustics. There was substantial leak in 2016.


It helped.

PN can also observe and keep tabs on Indian maritime activity and ports due to geographical proximity. Decades of observation can provide valuable insight.

But a war with India will present operational realities which are infinitely greater than detecting, tracking and forcing a lone submarine to surface while operating close to Pakistani border in scope. Indian ocean is big and PN does not have aircraft carrier(s).

WE will have to account for Arihant-class and Kilo-class submarines among other assets of the Indian Navy (IN). Arihant-class and Kilo-class feature a combination of measures including anechoic tiles, vibro-acoustic tiles, damping mastic and RAM for acoustics reduction.

The bottom line: WE should fight on a bigger level when absolutely necessary.

Even Operation Swift Retort should've shot down all Indian jets that was possible; you exert maximum pressure. If their was fear of it turning into a shooting match might as well have not even bothered with the operation to begin with. If I acted like the Pak Military, my competitor last year wouldn't be in the homeless shelter with his wife and kids, in his place it would've been me. Often times you need to be in a shooting match to reap its rewards.
Operation Swift Retort (OSR) was an achievement on many counts. It was years in the making, however.

1. After the Kargil Conflict in 1999, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) wanted to achieve technological superiority over the Indian Air Force (IAF). This took time (2002 - 2018).

1.1. PAF updated and expanded its F-16 fleet with support of USA and Turkey. USA provided more F-16s including Block 52+ and others were given MLU treatment. BVR engagement capability was established with reliable AMRAAM munition (PAF received AIM-120C-5 variant).

1.2. JF-17 Thunder program took shape and could be advanced much further with support of China. Block 2 could be inducted in numbers before 2019. BVR engagement capability was established with SD-10A munition.

1.3. PAF updated and expanded its AEW&C fleet with support of Sweden and China.

1.4. PAF has a dedicated EW platform and Squadron.

"Pakistan was armed with better fighter planes, Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missiles like AMRAAMs and backed by state-of-the-art SAAB airborne warning and control systems (AWACS), and left the Indian Air Force wanting in many places."


Rare admission in Indian press. :)

IAF found Russian R77 munition lacking and its jet fighter radio communications to be insecure.

"Times of India reported citing Indian Air Force sources that IAF Su-30MKI made an u-turn after facing battering rounds of American-made beyond visual range missile AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM and loosing an aircraft."


:lol:

- - - -

IAF has ordered Software Defined Radios (SDR) from Israel to make its jet fighter radio communications secure.



IAF is also inducting Rafale F3-R with Meteor BVR munition to match further advances of PAF.

- - - -

2. After loosing a jet fighter (or two), IAF was on the retreat from the Line Of Control (LOC).

PAF would have had to dispatch F-16s with CFTs to pursue retreating IAF jet fighters deep inside Indian space. This was unnecessary and could escalate ongoing exchange to next level. See point 3 below.

Indian pilot Abhinandan Varthaman was sufficient to embarass India.

3. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi was not thinking straight at the time. He was contemplating other options.



De-escalation was the way forward.

OSR was a measured response to Indian provocations at the time.

Overdoing something can backfire as well.

The bottom line: WE should fight on a bigger level when absolutely necessary.
 

araz

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Respected sir ,

I may be a lazy bloody civilian but the tangential gripe and a plethora of excuses to avoid a fight with the enemy coming from an ex service man is just shameful
Firstly I am not a Serviceman, just a Civvie like you. Secondly we are all entitled to an opinion and I have exercised my right. I write based on my assessment of the situation. Only Allah knows what will happen in case of a War but it will be my kith and kin who will become dust like you and yours. I dont mind dying personally but dying without any justifiable cause is foolishness. The Quran states that "we have ordained Qitaal on you even though it is disliked by you". Who but your creator knows what his creation feels.
Wars are not to be looked forward to although when it comes our way then InshaaAllah no one will find Pakistan and its citizens lacking in sacrifice.
It is said that only those who have been in wars know what horror it brings to them. People get destroyed not physically but mentally. So dont look for what is disliked by most of humanity.
A
 

iLION12345_1

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Good display of vigilance by Pakistan Navy (PN). :tup:

Some members complained that the intrusive submarine should have been engaged and destroyed even though it was noticed operating much further from Pakistani territorial waters (stretching up to 12 KM from land) at the time of intercept.

My take is that a response should be 'measured' and PN made the right call in view of its observations. WE should engage/kill/destroy when absolutely necessary.

There are also speculations about what can and cannot be detected. I would say that nothing is certain. There are statements and then there are interpretations.

See my explanation below.



Friend, your POV is not practical. Such an attempt will lead to war and I do not have to explain further. What a member might tell you is open to interpretation and inconclusive. Never jump to conclusion on mere statements.

One revelation is that an Ohio-class was involved in Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) which was launched in 2001; in what capacity is unclear. But it shall be kept in mind that OEF was launched with Pakistani consent.

Americans surprised Pakistan on 02-05-11 with Operation Neptune Spear (ONS) - you may say acted irrationally on this day. They came prepared for eventualities though, and there were 'reports' of some of the United States Navy (USN) submarines loitering around. These 'reports' could be from Western sources at a later stage; I have seen a source as well which provided a wider overview of developments on this day. I do not recall Pakistani reports in relation; PN said nothing in relation either.

Ohio-class is not a frequent visitor to Pakistani waters and Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ) - its activity in these waters is not even news on the web.

If an Ohio-class is noticed operating near a country (or hostile forces) then this was intentional to send a message:

"The Iranian Navy claims that the American submarine was operating close to where it has been conducting a major exercise this week and that it left after being detected. It's extremely rare to see U.S. Navy submarines sailing so close to the surface like this anywhere in the world, let alone in any sort of proximity to potential hostile forces."


Islamic Republic of Iran Navy (IRIN) and United States Navy (USN) do not have a working relationship but Iran had to show restraint.

Pakistan Navy (PN) and USN have a working relationship on the other hand.

- - - -

In case of hostilities, an Ohio-class is equipped to strike at a country from considerable distance(s). There is no need to park it very close to a country. It can arrive in Arabian Sea without warning because it is nuclear powered and there is no need to operate it at periscope depth. It can unload its payload on designated targets while submerged. It has significant passive sensor technology and techniques to mask its acoustics in order to avoid detection from a distance. There are too many unknowns in this case.

"By virtue of their concealment and endurance, the SSGN platform forces our adversaries to consider that they could be operating almost anywhere at any time. The sensor suite on the boat allows the captain to gather information and intelligence in situ, passing that back to the commander and responding on the spot. When you combine all that with the tremendous combat capability the boat brings – land attack missiles, special forces, torpedoes – that's a lot of bets the enemy has to cover down on." - Vice Admiral John Richardson

- - - -

If a submarine uses active sonar while operating close to a country with maritime surveillance capabilities, it can give its position. If not then it will be difficult to detect and track unless its acoustics are known.

PN have fairly good knowledge of Scorpene-class and its acoustics. There was substantial leak in 2016.


It helped.

PN can also observe and keep tabs on Indian maritime activity and ports due to geographical proximity. Decades of observation can provide valuable insight.

But a war with India will present operational realities which are infinitely greater than detecting, tracking and forcing a lone submarine to surface while operating close to Pakistani border in scope. Indian ocean is big and PN does not have aircraft carrier(s).

WE will have to account for Arihant-class and Kilo-class submarines among other assets of the Indian Navy (IN). Arihant-class and Kilo-class make use of anechoic tiles to mask their acoustics.

The bottom line: WE should fight on a bigger level when absolutely necessary.



Operation Swift Retort (OSR) was an achievement on many counts. It was years in the making, however.

1. After the Kargil Conflict in 1999, Pakistan Air Force (PAF) wanted to achieve technological superiority over the Indian Air Force (IAF). This took time (2002 - 2018).

1.1. PAF updated and expanded its F-16 fleet with support of USA and Turkey. USA provided more F-16s including Block 52+ and others were given MLU treatment. BVR engagement capability was established with reliable AMRAAM munition (PAF received AIM-120C-5 variant).

1.2. JF-17 Thunder program took shape and could be advanced much further with support of China. Block 2 could be inducted in numbers before 2019. BVR engagement capability was established with SD-10A munition.

1.3. PAF updated and expanded its AEW&C fleet with support of Switzerland and China.

1.4. PAF has a dedicated EW platform and Squadron.

"Pakistan was armed with better fighter planes, Beyond Visual Range air-to-air missiles like AMRAAMs and backed by state-of-the-art SAAB airborne warning and control systems (AWACS), and left the Indian Air Force wanting in many places."


Rare admission in Indian press. :)

IAF found Russian R77 munition lacking and its jet fighter radio communications to be insecure.

"Times of India reported citing Indian Air Force sources that IAF Su-30MKI made an u-turn after facing battering rounds of American-made beyond visual range missile AIM-120C-5 AMRAAM and loosing an aircraft."


:lol:

- - - -

IAF has ordered Software Defined Radios (SDR) from Israel to make its jet fighter radio communications secure.



IAF is also inducting Rafale F3-R with Meteor BVR munition to match further advances of PAF.

- - - -

2. After loosing a jet fighter (or two), IAF was on the retreat from the Line Of Control (LOC).

PAF would have had to dispatch F-16s with CFTs to pursue retreating IAF jet fighters deep inside Indian space. This was unnecessary and could escalate ongoing exchange to next level. See point 3 below.

Indian pilot Abhinandan Varthaman was sufficient to embarass India.

3. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi was not thinking straight at the time. He was contemplating other options.



De-escalation was the way forward.

OSR was a measured response to Indian provocations at the time.

Overdoing something can backfire as well.

The bottom line: WE should fight on a bigger level when absolutely necessary.
The only thing that stood out as strange to me was the line about anechoic tiles, literally all modern submarines use them, they’re a rather basic technology to reduce submarine signatures and hence modern equipment takes them into account as a standard parameter.
Good write up though 👍🏻
 

Gripen9

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Good display of vigilance by Pakistan Navy (PN). :tup:

Some members complained that the intrusive submarine should have been engaged and destroyed even though it was noticed operating much further from Pakistani territorial waters (stretching up to 12 KM from land) at the time of intercept.

One revelation is that an Ohio-class was involved in Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) which was launched in 2001; in what capacity is unclear. But it shall be kept in mind that OEF was launched with Pakistani consent.
Agree with your assessment with a minor correction :)

Territorial waters are 12NM ~ 22Km from the coast line not 12KM.
 

LeGenD

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The only thing that stood out as strange to me was the line about anechoic tiles, literally all modern submarines use them, they’re a rather basic technology to reduce submarine signatures and hence modern equipment takes them into account as a standard parameter.
Good write up though 👍🏻
Thanks for the pointer. I updated that statement.
Agree with your assessment with a minor correction :)

Territorial waters are 12NM ~ 22Km from the coast line not 12KM.
Thanks for the pointer. I fixed this typo.
 

The Eagle

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Bro personally ni lete baton ko. Thori effort chinese anti vaxxers ko den.
Mere piyaray: bas tum keyboard ko ilzam du. Wese firing button gaming mouse par thaa par training ma itna fire kiye k mouse fire button kharab aur real fire ka time aya tu keyboard Kam nahi Kiya warna us din abdoz tu sedha gaya tha. Trust me bro... Lag kar gaya warna khallas thaa. Ab chalo shabash... Bandwidth he bacha lu.
 

The Eagle

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Indian submarines’ unrequited quest for presence in Arabian Sea
https://nation.com.pk/contributor/zayan-tamer
Zayan Tamer
October 22, 2021

Around midnight on October 16 2021, one of Pakistan navy’s anti-submarine warfare aircraft picked up a fading silhouette of an unknown surface contact. The aircraft, as reported by the Pakistan military’s ISPR, was on a routine reconnaissance mission that night. The contact was closed and watched on various sensors fitted aboard the aircraft. Active, passive and visual searches indicated the contact was an Indian Kalvari class submarine. In naval parlance such a visual detection of a submarine, beyond any doubt, is called a ‘certain submarine contact’ or in short a ‘certsub’. This is the third of its kind, the first being on November 14, 2016 when Pakistan navy’s long range maritime patrol aircraft detected India’s 209 class (German-built) submarine. The detection had been denied by India.
On March 4, 2019, during the Pulwama crisis, India’s Kalvari class submarine was detected by Pakistan navy’s P-3C Orion aircraft away from Karachi near Makran Coast. The silhouette, periscope and other movements confirmed it to be the Indian submarine. Though India denied the ‘detection claims of Pakistan’ through media but later the submarine commander was fired as the hapless submarine entered Mumbai after an arduous travel back home at an incredibly slow speeds of 2-3 miles per hour. The latest detection of October 16 has also been denied by India’s mainstream media, saying the ‘claim remains unverified’, while the military sources have yet to say anything on that.

The latest detection comes at a time when the Indian military is in a debate to restructure its combat command and control mechanism to remain effective. An articulation of ‘maritime theatre command’ is on the cards, the primary function of which is assumed to be to keep a guard in the Arabian Sea, most likely against Pakistan. Besides the latest operational reconfiguration, the Indian military has been adopting and leaving several strategic and operational ideas for the past two decades. Sunderji’s ‘simultaneity and deep thrusts’ to ‘Cold Start’ to ‘improvised Proactive Ops’ to ‘Dynamic response’, narrated by Indian Army Chief M MNarvane while speaking at seminar on land warfare in March 2020. On the doctrine side, India has authored several military, maritime and joint doctrines giving general guidelines to military commanders and revealing public-related information about the military’s way of work.

India’s theatre commands, configured on the cardinals of the US Goldwater-Nichols scheme, would be joint military commands headed by three star military officers. The geographical ‘combatant commands’ aim to channelise resources and be ‘responsive’ to multi-dimensional threats to India’s integrity and strategic interests. The Indian strategic community believes both China and Pakistan pose considerable threats justifying the institution and operationalisation of joint theatre commands. Submarine forces are expected to be under the maritime theatre command headed by a high ranking Indian naval officer.
India’s military professionalism has come under a sharp scrutiny these past few years. Responding to post-Pulwama ‘surgical strike’, Pakistan Air Force launched ‘swift retort’ and shot two Indian fighters, which India chose not to escalate. Post-Uri incident, in 2016, India’s attempted ‘surgical strike’ did not result in fruition despite a pompous celebration after the purported strike. India’s endeavour to set a ‘new normal’ against Pakistan, by attacking spots that India thinks are keeping anti-India terror forces, appeared to have failed as Pakistan did not step back from making the military choice.

Deployment of Indian submarines in and around Pakistani waters could have many purposes. These stealthy platforms could gather vital information about military and commercial activities, which can later be used in military operations. Major peacetime missions of a diesel-electric submarine are mostly intelligence gathering. Another unique advantage of these submarines is their ability to operate in shallow waters, as shallow meters posing threat to maritime shipping in time of crises.
Detection of a submerged submarine is not an easy proposition, even for the most advanced navies. This is even more demanding in the Arabian Sea, where depth-temperature profile of the sea vis-à-vis sound waves’ travel allow enormous opportunity for a subsurface vessel to maintain its discretion. However, chance incidents could make the submarine detection and tracking possible but that requires a considerable focus, alertness and sound professionalism. Submarine at periscope depth gives a very small cross sectional area for the radar to enable its detection.

The Indian navy’s submarine operating history is replete with several accidents and losses. Maritime Study Forum, a Pakistani online magazine, suggests that Indian submarine Sindhughosh met collision in 2008; Sindhurakshak had fire onboard in 2010 and suffered flooding leading to its sinking in 2013; Shankush caught fire in 2010; Sindhuratna had a major fire onboard in 2014 and Arihant had faced a major damage due to flood in 2017 making her out of action for nearly 9 months. Submarine detections at periscope depths also show some technical issues, otherwise a submarine commander would never wish to be seen by the enemy close to hostile shores. Streaks of failures indicate there could have been unreported accidents as well, which cumulatively show the Indian navy’s unhealthy submarine operational record.
With such a questionable operational log of Indian submarines, one could argue that Indian submarines might incentivize Pakistan to take them on militarily should such a situation arise in future. Indian desire to dominate the depths of the Arabian Sea may not seem a possibility with the current state of submarine operations. Submarine detections, besides several uranium thefts inside India, make things a little complex for the Indian military planners making it necessary to rethink operational choices against Pakistan even in a time with all the theatre commands in place. The Indian navy should not become a routine ‘certsub’ navy while on the other hand it prepares to operate nuclear propelled ballistic missile carrying submarines.

 

Champs Trophy 2017

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Sail of shame
The crew must have a look on their faces like Abhinandan had when being escorted out of Pakistan through Wahgha border. The only difference is that these guys were allowed to take their ride back home.
 

fitpOsitive

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Pak Navy once again detects, blocks Indian submarine from entering into Pakistani waters

Pak Navy once again detects, blocks Indian submarine from entering into Pakistani waters

October 19, 2021 --- Web Desk

RAWALPINDI (92 News) – Pakistan Navy with its unremitting vigilance and professional competence has once again detected and blocked the Indian submarine on Oct 16, 2021 from entering into Pakistani waters.

During the prevailing security milieu, a strict monitoring watch has been kept by Pakistan Navy to safeguard maritime frontiers of Pakistan. It is the third incident of its kind wherein, an Indian Naval Submarine has been prematurely detected and tracked by PN Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft.

The recent incident reflects the deplorable Indian machinations vis-à-vis commitment and resolve of Pakistan Navy to defend maritime frontiers of the Motherland.


Pak Navy once again detects, blocks Indian submarine from entering into Pakistani waters (92newshd.tv)


PN blocks Indian submarine’s attempt to enter Pakistani waters


file photo

FILE PHOTO
RAWALPINDI:
The Pakistan Navy blocked the attempt by a submarine of the Indian navy to enter the waters of Pakistan, the Inter-Services Public Relations (ISPR) said on Tuesday.

According to a statement issued by the military's media wing, the Indian submarine tried to enter Pakistani waters on October 16, but it was "prematurely detected and tracked" by the Pakistan Navy.

"It is the third incident of its kind wherein, an Indian submarine has been prematurely detected and tracked by Pakistan Navy's Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft," the statement added.

"During the prevailing security milieu, a strict monitoring watch has been kept by Pakistan Navy to safeguard the maritime frontiers of Pakistan," the ISPR maintained.

"The recent incident reflects the deplorable Indian machinations vis-à-vis commitment and resolve of Pakistan Navy to defend maritime frontiers of the Motherland," it added.

PN blocks Indian submarine’s attempt to enter Pakistani waters (tribune.com.pk)









Why Pakistan always lets the spying Indian submarines go like that? I mean Pakistani Flight Atlantic-91 was also shot down in the same area years ago. Have we forgotten it?

Either Pakistan is beghyrat and afraid of India or we are lying.
 

TsAr

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Why you always comment on my views? please leave me alone. you don't understand technical details. You are happy just because we detected this sub. This is Good for you, not for me. I believe in Aggressive posture and not defensive.
if our radars detect IAF jets inside India or in international airspace does that mean that PAF should shoot them out?
 

Arsalan345

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if our radars detect IAF jets inside India or in international airspace does that mean that PAF should shoot them out?
I am not worried about detection. I am thinking about how it slips through in our water. How many days this sub stayed undetected in our water? We must analyze everything because we are dealing with a clever enemy. What is India trying to achieve in our waters? Are they mining vital points using submarines? There are lots of questions.
 

khansaheeb

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I am not worried about detection. I am thinking about how it slips through in our water. How many days this sub stayed undetected in our water? We must analyze everything because we are dealing with a clever enemy. What is India trying to achieve in our waters? Are they mining vital points using submarines? There are lots of questions.
They are smuggling arms and terrorists or testing our defenses, even worse laying sensors to detect ship / Submarine positions. With CPEC being attacked by Indian agents Pakistan should be on high alert 24X7.
 
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