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Featured Pakistan Navy prevented Indian Submarine from entering into Pakistani waters on 16th October

Dalit

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I say bait it...act like it didn't get detected...while track it the whole time...let it enter territorial waters...then deploy depth charges all around...and establish contact...threaten to torpedo it if it doesn't surface. Capture the submarine and the crew in Pakistani waters...and film the whole thing and publicize it. This will embarrass them enough not to try anything for a long while...
...and give Pakistan a chance to study the sub in detail.
Bajwa wants to have productive relations with the USA. India is a US lackey. You can do the math.
 

NA71

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@TheTallGuy are we going to witness 2nd 27/2/19 in coming days....situation is worsening ...in one week, 09 Indian soldiers were killed in Kashmir

even Indian ministers asking Indian Cricket board to cancel T-20 match with Pak....it may cause violence in Kashmir.
 

Aesterix

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I dont want to speak for the original member, but what he/she might be stating is that Subs that dont want to be detected stay submerged and don't snorkel. The purpose of this act might be more political. I also agree that snorkeling in this manner is not prudent. PN ASW systems likely dropped hydrophones and picked up as much as they could. So unless sub was forced to snorkel to avoid getting blown out, that act of snorkeling is a bit strange, unless it was deliberate.

If the vessel is in our EEZ normal action (in non-war scenario) is to engage and guide asset out or give permission for navigation through. This requires the vessel to show itself and state its purpose. However under International Maritime Navigation Law a vessel is allowed to traverse EEZ if its intention is purely navigation (from one point to another) and no one can stop that, nor is permission required. I have no way of confirming this, but my sense is that the sub snorkeled to allow it to navigate the EEZ, or conversely it was given a forceful knock to surface "or else" upon detection.

It likely did not get permission to navigate the EEZ so prob made a small ingress and then moved out, or was detected well into its act of ingress or act of traversing the EEZ (and probably surfaced to make a point, we did what we needed to and you should know it). So detection was not something big here (if sub had already surfaced), outside of the fact that ASW assets were there to begin with. Or if the sub was detected outside of EEZ and given a knock as soon as it came into or close to EEZ - that would be a solid win. Given the limited nature of information we cannot be certain how this played out and I for one will not have happy ears or extend false platitudes. Something is not right here and more information is needed to make a good assessment which we all our unlikely to get. I am certain many such ingresses do go completely undetected as the expanse of open sea in our EEZ is too large to effectively monitor. I doubt PN has hydrophone based sensor network deployed across the EEZ. That is a possibility and if so that would be awesome! Though again complete conjecture on this capability.

I think India is also sending a message. It is putting out there for the world and shipping channels the real threat it poses to Pakistani water navigation. It will leverage these very images to make shipping insurance impossible and difficult in a state of hot war or some pre-war tension. Which also speaks to the importance of PNSC, because few will venture these waters in the case of war outside of our owned flagged operations. This aggressive submarine patrolling speaks to the aggression of India. I for one would be comfortable if Pakistani subs were detected off Indias' coast every week. It is a psychological jolt to any nation of subs operating so close to its waters.

My other concern is Indian sub being used to make coastal drops of weapons and people especially in Baluchistan. That is my biggest concern here, which is why Pakistan needs to elucidate a policy of greater aggression and make our Coastal areas hot fire zones for non-detected / sub-surface vessels.
Hi,
A foreign ship or submarine only needs Pakistans permission to enter territorial water which is 12 miles from the coast. Even passage through territorial water doesn't need to be after permission, and vessels can traverse without stopping.
To enter EEZ ,no permission is needed, but to engage in any economics activities, such as large scale fishing or mining, a foreign vessel will need Pakistans permission.

The Indian submarine was not engaging in any economics activities, so didn't need permission. But since it's a militiary vessel and probably armed with missiles capable of reaching Pakistani land from hundreds of kilometres away, Pakistan reserves the right to track the vehicle and ask them to keep distance or leave the EEZ.
This is a grey area as long as internal laws are concerned.
While coastal states cannot limit the right of navigation for any ships or submarines through the EEZ, the unrestricted passage applies to "Innocent passage". Its a legal term which applies to vessels who don't pose any threat to coastal state.
The definition of "threat" can vary, and that's where the grey zone starts.
A coastal state may deem a passing vessel through EEZ or territorial water as threat, and the passing vessels and its flag state may disagree.

Pakistan invokes this clause for chasing indian submarines, and so does India.
It's just that Pakistan does it far better.
 

SQ8

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Should have sunk it and send the message straight up. If this was the other way around you and I know for sure without a doubt the Indians would’ve torpedoed it and everyone in the chain of command would have a manhoos looking face and not able to do much.

As @PanzerKiel was making a comparison between a fighter and submarine. With all due respect to him no matter if it’s a million or billion, that’s not a good way to look at things. If a threat is there and violates terms you blow it up. Start acting like an Israeli and it’ll prevent others from lifting their eyes.
Not recommend at this time but - as @PanzerKiel pointed out HUMINT and ELINT was key here. But they are probing for a gap and for a reason - the Bhaktora may be a religious nutjob but he is planning something clever.
 

NA71

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Not recommend at this time but - as @PanzerKiel pointed out HUMINT and ELINT was key here. But they are probing for a gap and for a reason - the Bhaktora may be a religious nutjob but he is planning something clever.
Exactly, we shouldn't be over joyed ...they are testing and checking response before doing real work
 

Rashid Mahmood

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@Rashid Mahmood can you please enlightened us here about the incident and which submarine was in it??
INS.JPG


This was the exact location of the IN submarine when it was being tracked via thermal imaging, which is 158 NM SSW from Karachi.
These are international waters and no offensive action can be taken against such detections.

The track, speed and time of the location and tracking was not disclosed.
It was detected while submerged and after sonobouys were dropped, it had to surface to disclose its location to the Orion overhead to avoid any further action.

The information/movement of this IN sub may have been known when it left harbour and was probably proceeding to its patrol station near our coastline.

It is was a scorpene class submarine, and PN does have a signature library for this class.

Movements of submarines are normally classified by all navies to avoid detection by others in order to capture their acoustic signatures.

The UNCLOS only restricts vessels movements in Territorial waters.

PART III of UNCLOS
Article20

Submarines and other underwater vehicles
In the territorial sea, submarines and other underwater vehicles are required to navigate on the surface and to show their flag.


There is no restrictions of movements in International waters. However Hot pursuit can be done.

PART VII of UNCLOS
Article111
Right of hot pursuit
5. The right of hot pursuit may be exercised only by warships or military aircraft, or other ships or aircraft clearly marked and identifiable as being on government service and authorized to that effect.

6. Where hot pursuit is effected by an aircraft:

(a) the provisions of paragraphs 1 to 4 shall apply mutatis mutandis;


(b) the aircraft giving the order to stop must itself actively pursue the ship until a ship or another aircraft of the coastal State, summoned by the aircraft, arrives to take over the pursuit, unless the aircraft is itself able to arrest the ship. It does not suffice to justify an arrest outside the territorial sea that the ship was merely sighted by the aircraft as an offender or suspected offender, if it was not both ordered to stop and pursued by the aircraft itself or other aircraft or ships which continue the pursuit without interruption.
 
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untitled

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The information/movement of this IN sub may have been known when it left harbour and was probably proceeding to its patrol station near our coastline.
If this was indeed the case then we should have allowed the sub to proceed to our territorial waters and replayed the whole "Hunt for Saffron October game", in this month of october
 
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Whitefalcon90

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War is inevitable but you should be brave enough to decide whether you want it or not. Don't allow other country to decide the timeline of war. India is dominating Pakistan right now. I am not talking about Feb. 26 or Feb. 27. I am talking about aggressive approach. They are dominating and they are aggressive. Aggressive approach wins you wars. Defensive approach is seen as coward. Defensive approach can save Pakistan but for how long? Enemy will decide another date and it will provoke you again. Armed forces job is to fight and to destroy every threat. reverse is happening in Pakistan. Everyone is showing mercy like we are Somalia.

This is probably Diversion tactic or probably giving clean path to Another submarine. It's disturbing. Compromising on national security! what if same submarine destroy our frigates? Where we will complain? UAE or Saudia? Nobody will help us this time. You fight your wars alone and you should be brave enough. please bring back Musharraf. This is embarrassing.
Say what? He was a coward who will be remembered as such. We need zia ul haq type army chief.
Sinking a multi billion dollar submarine in international waters is an act of war. It's not comparable to shooting down Abhi bhabi in his flying trash can coffin over AJK, or blowing up panjeet's bunker with an ATGM at the LoC.
So? If it was sunk India wouldn't have don't shit about it. We all know you Indian Hindus you lack balls to fight. If war happens we will pulverize you hindus.
 

Great Janjua

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Indians are scouring themselves, bigger holes all these detections come at a high price their sub signatures now have been acquired successfully. That too by our MPA's.
 

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