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Pakistan is interested in turkish MILDEN submarine project.

Muhammed45

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Question is why are we investing so much in submarines?
Not that I'm against it but what's the logic behind this?
Indian navy is going to try a naval blockade on Pakistan's major ports in case of a full scale war. I was Wondering why are Pakistanis so careless about their submersible fleet. Good moves but not enough i must add. Helos are not that important. A manpad can neutralize it easily.
 

Aryeih Leib

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Survivability of Pakistan's second strike. The Arabian Sea will have the Indian Navy's significant ASW capability looking for our subs.


China is the world's largest producer of steel, right next door, and also a strategic ally.
Who knows what comes tomorrow .once pakistan was one the closet ally of America but today you are facing trouble to even get a simple helicopter engine frm Americans . Put all eggs in one basket is never a smart thing
 

Peace be there

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Subs are some of the stealthiest assets of war(generally speaking). They are not only attack assets...but are also excellent for A2/AD. For a smaller navy facing a much larger navy...where they can't compete to match enemy vessels one for one...subs are a great asset to balance out such a superiority...

...and of course there is the whole second strike capability. This last thing alone is worth its own lengthy discussion. Consider the strategic value that nukes bring into the picture...they are great equalizer...no matter how big or powerful the enemy...with nukes in play...that enemy would be deterred from attacking due to the cost they would have to pay in return. A boomer doubles that strategic value...bcuz it assures second strike capability. Even if the enemy thinks there is a tiny chance of neutralizing the first strike capability...boomers end all such hopes and dreams. In short...subs are very important...and rightfully so.

MOD EDIT:
Source to your post - please avoid plagiarizing
 
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Yasser76

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Who knows what comes tomorrow .once pakistan was one the closet ally of America but today you are facing trouble to even get a simple helicopter engine frm Americans . Put all eggs in one basket is never a smart thing
The Engine relates to US-Turkish relations, not US-Pak. If you noticed US is still providing defence equipment and services to Pakistan (sold more Sniper pods last year). Pak just moving away from US.
 

waz

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Who knows what comes tomorrow .once pakistan was one the closet ally of America but today you are facing trouble to even get a simple helicopter engine frm Americans . Put all eggs in one basket is never a smart thing
The engine is a US/Turk issue not Pakistan , and you don't know the depth of the Pakistan/China relationship, which stretches decades.
 

hussain0216

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Indian navy is going to try a naval blockade on Pakistan's major ports in case of a full scale war. I was Wondering why are Pakistanis so careless about their submersible fleet. Good moves but not enough i must add. Helos are not that important. A manpad can neutralize it easily.
We have 8 subs coming (4 to be built in Karachi after tot)

3 Agostas have been upgraded

And now we are looking both internally for our own sub solutions and outside

Remember ours subs will house nuclear capable weapons
 

peagle

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Who knows what comes tomorrow .once pakistan was one the closet ally of America but today you are facing trouble to even get a simple helicopter engine frm Americans . Put all eggs in one basket is never a smart thing
Pakistan was never "one of the closest ally of America" it has been transitional relationship throughout history.

America gave nearly a billion dollars worth of military aid to India within few weeks in India's war with China, Pakistan ask America not to, we were in alliance, but they ignored Pakistan.

When 1965 war began, despite our alliance, they sanctioned Pakistan, India's weapons were Soviet based so it didn't effect India, but Pakistan was lot of difficulties. Those sanctioned were only lifted 15 years later in 1980, people don't realise that.

Then from 1990 to 2001 Pakistan was sanctioned again, that's some ally, we spent half our history under sanctions, but selective history gets told, so that's the public perception.

I think it was Hilary Clinton, who called Pakistan the most sanctioned ally, in recognition of past mistakes.
 

waz

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More about the Mildem;

Turkey operates the second-largest submarine fleet in NATO. Currently all of them are imported designs, but that is set to change. The program to build the first indigenous submarine has been formally launched. Known as MiLDEN (Milli Denizaltı), six of the new boats should join the fleet in the 2030s.

The move comes at a time many defense deals with Turkey are under the spotlight, with the U.S. cancelling sales of F-35 fighter jets to the country and taking away its production role in the program over Turkey's decision to acquire Russian S-400 air-defense missiles. Turkey also has ambitions to be more self-sufficient in defense, building indigenous frigates and main battle tanks. It even has a railgun project.

The new submarines will have Air Independent Power (AIP), which will allow them to remain submerged for much longer than traditional non-nuclear submarines. Contrary to popular belief, AIP is used to power the electric motor which turns the propeller, not to charge the batteries. The batteries are reserved for silent running and high-speed dashes when the AIP alone is not enough.

Turkey;s 12 current submarines are all based on the German Type-209 family. The plan has been for these to be partly replaced by six of the more advanced Type-214TN model, also from Germany. The Type-214TN submarines will be known as the Reis Class and, like many previous Turkish submarines, will be built locally. The project has suffered from serious delays however and is not expected to join the fleet until the 2020s.

The MiLDEN program will take years more of research and development. In the meantime the local shipbuilding industry is gaining experience by upgrading three of Pakistan's submarines. These were built in France so, together with the construction of German-designed boats, Turkey is gaining a broad awareness of submarine design.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidh...mystery-unmanned-vessel-really-a-chinese-spy/

When the Pakistani submarines reenter service they may shoulder the nuclear deterrent in the form of nuclear-tipped cruise missiles. Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan has suggested he’s interested in developing nuclear weapons, saying on September 4 that "Some countries have missiles with nuclear warheads, not one or two. But [they tell us] we can’t have them. This, I cannot accept." The role of Turkey's submarines in any future nuclear deterrent is unclear.

Either way, Turkey occupies a strategic location on the eastern edge of NATO. It controls the Bosporus, a narrow waterway between the Mediterranean and Black Sea. Crucially, under the 1936 Montreux Convention other countries' submarines are forbidden from passing through the Bosporus. For example, this means that Russia cannot use its submarines based in the Black Sea for operations off Syria.




Seems like the Mildem will take inspiration from the most advanced 214 from Germany. That's fab.
 

waz

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Hey @Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you remember our conversations 16 years ago on PDF regarding the purchase of the 214 submarine?
Well now it looks like it is coming to Pakistan in the form of the REIS class i.e. the licence build from Turkey, which the Mildem will be based off, with improvements! So I guess our vision is coming to light.




The infrastructure established for REİS Class Submarines will be used in the design and construction of the first national submarine, MİLDEN, which will be designed and built with a high domestic contribution rate and national resources. Although initially thought to have similar dimensions and displacement as the REİS Class, I believe that MİLDEN boats will be slightly longer and heavier than planned. MİLDEN Submarines will have a length of around 75-80m, a beam of 7m, a draught of 6.5m, and a submerged displacement between 2,500-3,000 tons and unlike the REİS Class, MİLDEN Submarines will have at least one Reformer. Preferred for long-range missions, Reformer is preferred for large (over 2,000 tons) submarines. Both PEM Fuel Cell modules and Reformers to be used in MİLDEN submarines to be equipped with 300kW (400hp) AIP System will be designed and produced nationally, and the systems will also be developed domestically under the Submarine Propulsion System Components Development Project. The PEM Fuel Cell modules, which will be manufactured locally by the company to be selected under the project, are intended to replace the BZM120 modules currently used in REİS Class Submarines in the following years. Additionally, unlike the REİS Class, MİLDEN Class is expected to use locally produced Lithium-Ion (Li-Ion) batteries (LIB) with higher power and capacity instead of lead-acid batteries. Unlike REİS Class submarines, which are currently under construction, and AY, PREVEZE, and GÜR Class submarines, which have a single compartment cigar-shaped hull form, MİLDEN class submarines will have a multi-compartment teardrop hull form. I think that MİLDEN will have at least six 533mm heavyweight torpedo tubes and one 650mm deployment station to allow SAS/SAT underwater operations.

Mr Ibrahim Sünnetçi
 
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aziqbal

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Good move

Pakistan should even invest few hundred million in to the MILDEM programme

Turkish submarines will be more advanced than their European counterparts post 2030

Pakistan should seriously consider this

if 8 x SSK dont have cruise missiles capability + nuclear warhead

then Pakistan should design its down version of the MILDEN to ensure we can launch cruise missiles from the sea which can carry nuclear warheads

SSK+ Cruise Missiles + Nuclear warhead is a must
 

waz

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Good move

Pakistan should even invest few hundred million in to the MILDEM programme

Turkish submarines will be more advanced than their European counterparts post 2030

Pakistan should seriously consider this

if 8 x SSK dont have cruise missiles capability + nuclear warhead

then Pakistan should design its down version of the MILDEN to ensure we can launch cruise missiles from the sea which can carry nuclear warheads

SSK+ Cruise Missiles + Nuclear warhead is a must
Yes for sure, the Mildem will have the ability to launch cruise missiles for sure. But as for the sea based nuclear deterrent that really belongs to a ballistic missile submarine, although a cruise variant will suffice for the short-term.
 

aziqbal

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Yes for sure, the Mildem will have the ability to launch cruise missiles for sure. But as for the sea based nuclear deterrent that really belongs to a ballistic missile submarine, although a cruise variant will suffice for the short-term.
yes I was not really implying sea based deterrent

rather SSK with cruise missiles which is nuclear capable

Babur III was tested in 2017 from under water platform, now if we can continue to work on miniaturising nuclear technology and by all accounts Pakistan is working on that there is no reason why Babur III cannot be armed with nuclear warhead

then we fit missiles into the MILDEM or Hanger Class submarines

so a conventional platform with nuclear capability much cheaper solution to the Boomer which Pakistan clearly doesn't need
 

HttpError

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The nuclear submarine is easy to detect, why does Pakistan want nuclear propulsion when its enemy is close to it?
Being a nuclear power, we ought to have a nuclear submarine. We need to complete the Nuclear Triad (not talking about launching of nuclear capable cruise missiles from the diesel electric subs).
 

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