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Pakistan industrialization, foreign policy and political system

vi-va

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Jan 23, 2019
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This is my first post here, my 2 cents for my Pakistan friends:

Due to political system, culture and history difference between Pakistan and China, my experience may not apply to Pakistan's situation.


Long story, China's history:
1, In China's founder chairman Mao's era, China got nuclear weapons and missiles, large scale foreign invasion is unlikely, small scale military conflicts are manageable. This protected a safety environment for Deng Xiaoping's reform.
2, In Mao's era (1928-1976), Japan invaded China for 14 years(30+ million died), China fought with US in Korea peninsula for 3 years(300 thousands Chinese soldiers died, millions Koreans died), India and Soviet Union(small scale), and help Vietnameses fight with US again in Vietnam for 20 years. China had been in invasion since 1839, and we Chinese call it century of humiliation (1839-1949). Chairman Mao saved this country, no more humiliation, we fought hard, no matter who is our enemy, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
3, Vietnam war brought US to the negotiation table. US lost the war, politically and militarily.
4, In Chairman Mao's era, GDP growth rate is about 6-7%. More importantly, Chairman Mao built the backbone of INDUSTRIALIZATION, education system, railroad, electrical power system, dam, irrigation, petroleum industry, steel industry, military, political system, foreign relationship, permanent seat in UN and everything.
5, After Chairman Mao (1976), second leader Deng Xiaoping start economic and political reform. Economy is first priority in recent 40 years. GDP growth rate is around 10%. It drop to 6.5% in recent 5 years.
6, In recent 40 years, China tried very hard to not get involved in foreign conflicts, many many sacrifices and concession. China had land disputes with Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Myanmar, Vietnam, Nepal and India. All disputes are resolved politically except India. (Bhutan doesn't count due to India).

What I want to say here is:
1, No matter how aggressive India is, Pakistan has options to avoid a major war due to nuclear weapon. Small scale conflicts can't hurt Pakistan at all BUT strengthen Pakistan's national will and morale.
2, Pakistan people are very brave, not afraid of sacrifices. Foreign threat is manageable, but inner political struggle is real danger. Pakistan parties should stop fighting with each other and focus on development.
3, Economy is the key. INDUSTRIALIZATION is the source of power. Pakistan has population of UK, France and Germany combined. Bigger than Germany and Japan combined. And a nuclear weapon armed force. Pakistan could be one of the top 5 countries on this planet. The only way to achieve this is INDUSTRIALIZATION.
4, Good foreign relationship and international environment are helpful for foreign investment and trade.
5, Safety environment is very important for economy development. Terrorist attacks hurt Pakistan very badly.
6, Political stabilization is more important than anything else. China is not democracy by western standard. but China's political environment is more stable than any other countries. China's domestic and foreign policy has not changed much for 40 years(since 1976), no matter who is the leader. The fundamental domestic policy is development. The fundamental foreign policy is peace.(和平与发展) . China has not been involved in any major war for 4 decades. All conflicts were managed to de-escalation.
7, Industrialization needs educated labors, infrastructure, stable political environment and strong will.
8, None of the G8 countries achieve industrialization by democracy. In the opposite, all of them were meritocracy back in 18th and 19th.
9, Japan and South Korea are still meritocracy. Most of the Japan political leaders comes from a small groups of families. Japan and South Korea's economy are controlled by a few financial groups. In Japan there are
Mitsubishi (三菱财阀), Mitsui (三井财阀), Sumitomo (住友财阀) , Yasuda (安田财阀). In South Korea there are Samsung family group, Hyundai family group, LG family group.
10, China are meritocracy, but most of the elites comes from the bottom. Political leaders started their political career from very low ranking, step up little by little by performance. There is a Politburo Standing Committee for each level of government, no matter a city, a province or central government, all the policies must be made by group decision making.
11, The United States’ share of Global Manufacturing Value Added declined from 28% in 2002, to 16.5% in 2011. By 2016, the U.S. share rose to over 18%, while China is 3590.98 billion U.S. dollars in 2017, which is about 26% of Global Manufacturing Value Added.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf
12, It may sounds arrogant. But is it good for Pakistan to have western style political system? Open question.

As I said, due to political system, culture and history difference between Pakistan and China, my experience may not apply to Pakistan's situation. I have been in this forum for years, just registered though. I hope my thoughts may be useful.

Regards
 
Jun 15, 2016
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This is an awesome post and some sober advice for Pakistan.

I think Pakistan can develop and fare well without importing any kind of political system. Industrialization with the help of friendly neighbors such as China is the way forward.
 

Reddington

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Yes you are right. Pakistan needs a meritocratic, one party system like China. This Western Democracy has given us nothing but corruption and illiteracy. And Pakistan needs massive Industrialization that can only be achieved with a system which China has.
We will be going to presidential system soon as I don't think this parliamentary democracy can work anymore.
 

Whirling_dervesh

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Awesome post! And very thought provoking.

If it was up to me I would cull the whole political and feudal classes in one swoop and instigate reform via industrialisation.

Pakistan would become pariahs in the world but at the cost of a Maoist type revolution that would be the only way to do things efficiently.

Imran Khan is an honest man but he is not a politician or a revolutionary. He is a western educated middle class reformer. I don't think he has the charisma or support to achieve those goals. Ot rook him 20 years to get to office, it will take him 40 years to get reforms through.

Pakistan needs a revolution, and the simplest way is through a Maoist type character, which we haven't got.
 

Mamadouso

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I think the big difference here is the size of country - Pak is big but not at scale of China so hasn’t got springboard to easily jump start especially when you have hostile US in Afghanistan and Us/Israeli puppet India on the other - anytime Pak has tried to focus on economy they get involved.
 

his5850

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No body given a single statement for Pakistan that Pakistan has a right to defend it self and now OIC invited India. Not even a single country is standing with us. There is something very wrong with our foreign policy and if other country saying it just about business then Pakistan should only do business.
 

Pakhtoon yum

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I think the big difference here is the size of country - Pak is big but not at scale of China so hasn’t got springboard to easily jump start especially when you have hostile US in Afghanistan and Us/Israeli puppet India on the other - anytime Pak has tried to focus on economy they get involved.
Neither did the UK, they were also surrounded by enemies

Awesome post! And very thought provoking.

If it was up to me I would cull the whole political and feudal classes in one swoop and instigate reform via industrialisation.

Pakistan would become pariahs in the world but at the cost of a Maoist type revolution that would be the only way to do things efficiently.

Imran Khan is an honest man but he is not a politician or a revolutionary. He is a western educated middle class reformer. I don't think he has the charisma or support to achieve those goals. Ot rook him 20 years to get to office, it will take him 40 years to get reforms through.

Pakistan needs a revolution, and the simplest way is through a Maoist type character, which we haven't got.
Me, I formally apply for position of...uhh...Maoist?
 

Yaseen1

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Our area is much smaller than china and massive industrialization will have negative impact on our environment and agricultural produce we should focus on agriculture and branding of food items
 

his5850

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Our area is much smaller than china and massive industrialization will have negative impact on our environment and agricultural produce we should focus on agriculture and branding of food items
no it won't grow more tresses other problem is expensive electric city and gas storage i have no idea why are Pakistan building houses or metro bus before Dams Pakistan also need to invent in R&D too Pakistan need to invest in those thing only which benefit Pakistan not any one political carrier.
 

vi-va

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Yes you are right. Pakistan needs a meritocratic, one party system like China. This Western Democracy has given us nothing but corruption and illiteracy. And Pakistan needs massive Industrialization that can only be achieved with a system which China has.
We will be going to presidential system soon as I don't think this parliamentary democracy can work anymore.

As I said above, a strong gov is needed for rapid economy growth. When new gov has been in charge in Aug 2018, I knew it won't be a strong gov due to seats in parliament of Pakistan. PTI do NOT has majority in upper house, and rely on coalition in National Assembly. This make PTI in awkward dilemma which can't make policy without fighting and concession.

In the opposite, BJP has won the majority in India. Pakistan are exposed in higher external risk from east side. Pakistan has to act quickly.
 

Abdussamad

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Economy is not a priority in Pakistan. Only fighting india is a priority. The country was created by the land owning muslim elite and exists for their benefit. The elite don't care about such trivial matters as the economy. They are all very very rich and in complete control in Pakistan. What matters to them is perpetuating their rule forever and that requires keeping the external enemy at bay so everything is geared towards that effort.
 

vi-va

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Jan 23, 2019
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Economy is not a priority in Pakistan. Only fighting india is a priority. The country was created by the land owning muslim elite and exists for their benefit. The elite don't care about such trivial matters as the economy. They are all very very rich and in complete control in Pakistan. What matters to them is perpetuating their rule forever and that requires keeping the external enemy at bay so everything is geared towards that effort.

When god closes a door, he opens a window. China lost 300 years since 17th century. China was humiliated for more than 100 years by invaders and now China is recovering.

Pakistan has a bright future as long as every Pakistanis fight for it.
 

Rasengan

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This is my first post here, my 2 cents for my Pakistan friends:

Due to political system, culture and history difference between Pakistan and China, my experience may not apply to Pakistan's situation.


Long story, China's history:
1, In China's founder chairman Mao's era, China got nuclear weapons and missiles, large scale foreign invasion is unlikely, small scale military conflicts are manageable. This protected a safety environment for Deng Xiaoping's reform.
2, In Mao's era (1928-1976), Japan invaded China for 14 years(30+ million died), China fought with US in Korea peninsula for 3 years(300 thousands Chinese soldiers died, millions Koreans died), India and Soviet Union(small scale), and help Vietnameses fight with US again in Vietnam for 20 years. China had been in invasion since 1839, and we Chinese call it century of humiliation (1839-1949). Chairman Mao saved this country, no more humiliation, we fought hard, no matter who is our enemy, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.
3, Vietnam war brought US to the negotiation table. US lost the war, politically and militarily.
4, In Chairman Mao's era, GDP growth rate is about 6-7%. More importantly, Chairman Mao built the backbone of INDUSTRIALIZATION, education system, railroad, electrical power system, dam, irrigation, petroleum industry, steel industry, military, political system, foreign relationship, permanent seat in UN and everything.
5, After Chairman Mao (1976), second leader Deng Xiaoping start economic and political reform. Economy is first priority in recent 40 years. GDP growth rate is around 10%. It drop to 6.5% in recent 5 years.
6, In recent 40 years, China tried very hard to not get involved in foreign conflicts, many many sacrifices and concession. China had land disputes with Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Pakistan, Myanmar, Vietnam, Nepal and India. All disputes are resolved politically except India. (Bhutan doesn't count due to India).

What I want to say here is:
1, No matter how aggressive India is, Pakistan has options to avoid a major war due to nuclear weapon. Small scale conflicts can't hurt Pakistan at all BUT strengthen Pakistan's national will and morale.
2, Pakistan people are very brave, not afraid of sacrifices. Foreign threat is manageable, but inner political struggle is real danger. Pakistan parties should stop fighting with each other and focus on development.
3, Economy is the key. INDUSTRIALIZATION is the source of power. Pakistan has population of UK, France and Germany combined. Bigger than Germany and Japan combined. And a nuclear weapon armed force. Pakistan could be one of the top 5 countries on this planet. The only way to achieve this is INDUSTRIALIZATION.
4, Good foreign relationship and international environment are helpful for foreign investment and trade.
5, Safety environment is very important for economy development. Terrorist attacks hurt Pakistan very badly.
6, Political stabilization is more important than anything else. China is not democracy by western standard. but China's political environment is more stable than any other countries. China's domestic and foreign policy has not changed much for 40 years(since 1976), no matter who is the leader. The fundamental domestic policy is development. The fundamental foreign policy is peace.(和平与发展) . China has not been involved in any major war for 4 decades. All conflicts were managed to de-escalation.
7, Industrialization needs educated labors, infrastructure, stable political environment and strong will.
8, None of the G8 countries achieve industrialization by democracy. In the opposite, all of them were meritocracy back in 18th and 19th.
9, Japan and South Korea are still meritocracy. Most of the Japan political leaders comes from a small groups of families. Japan and South Korea's economy are controlled by a few financial groups. In Japan there are
Mitsubishi (三菱财阀), Mitsui (三井财阀), Sumitomo (住友财阀) , Yasuda (安田财阀). In South Korea there are Samsung family group, Hyundai family group, LG family group.
10, China are meritocracy, but most of the elites comes from the bottom. Political leaders started their political career from very low ranking, step up little by little by performance. There is a Politburo Standing Committee for each level of government, no matter a city, a province or central government, all the policies must be made by group decision making.
11, The United States’ share of Global Manufacturing Value Added declined from 28% in 2002, to 16.5% in 2011. By 2016, the U.S. share rose to over 18%, while China is 3590.98 billion U.S. dollars in 2017, which is about 26% of Global Manufacturing Value Added.
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42135.pdf
12, It may sounds arrogant. But is it good for Pakistan to have western style political system? Open question.

As I said, due to political system, culture and history difference between Pakistan and China, my experience may not apply to Pakistan's situation. I have been in this forum for years, just registered though. I hope my thoughts may be useful.

Regards

This is probably the best post from a Chinese member to educate us Pakistani's on the history, culture and socio-economics of China with context. Other Chinese members should learn from you. When someone is attacking your country, defeat them with facts, if they continue to be a nuisance then laugh at there ignorance.
 

nahtanbob

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When god closes a door, he opens a window. China lost 300 years since 17th century. China was humiliated for more than 100 years by invaders and now China is recovering.

Pakistan has a bright future as long as every Pakistanis fight for it.

you imposed one child per family to fix your problems. you will need all the good luck getting the yahoos on this board to go along
 

Crusher

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To save Pakistan's local manufacturing industry we need to scrap the Free Trade Agreement (FTA) because Pakistan and China, this FTA has ruined Pakistan's indigenous industry and is causing unbearable trade deficits with China regularly amounting to north of 10 billion dollars.
 

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