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Pakistan F-16 Discussions 2

ziaulislam

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trump was radicle, if we couldn't get f16 in his time, i doubt we will be able to get them later since the establishment has long moved especially after 2019 to provide pakistan with any thing, and pakistan itself is no longer desperate
 

ziaulislam

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Be it Life Extension Kit or MLU..., you can be sure the US will make us work for it.
which is why i think it wont happen
MLU kit may extend its flying life but without new gen weapons it would be a "somasa" just like Egyptians f16

it was top of the line in 2010 with aim120C and will be till may be 2030 but afterwards AESA & long range AAMs will be the norm and anything less will be obsolete (i.e any thing less then f16 V+ aim 9x+aim120D will be obsolete)
 

araz

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There is always a chance and policies change. Did many people think we would get F-16s after Pressler Amendment in the 90s?
Interesting thought. I think it is fair to say there are still chances.
Firstly US is still entangled/positioned in Afghanistan. In order to placate the Taliban it still needs Pakistan to intercede(irrespective of the debate whether Pak has influence over the Talibans or not). This is a dangerous game and we should stay out of it barring organizing meetings.
Secondly the release of FMS. I think given current fiscal strain on US it is extremely unlikely we will get anything. This is what we want but wont get. The US has a history of being a bully and it wont change its colours now.
On payment. PAF has actually not been denied F16s but US financial incentives are/what have not been apprived. Technically you can still request a sale asking US to loan you the money for the buy and then pay on delivery. The elephant on the room here is whether the PAF has the reserves or wants to spend them.
Armaments. In the current environment, 9X and 120C7/D have become imperative but the real question is whether the US would release those or not.
Lastly the utility of the 16s. I don't think anyone denies the utility and the fear factor of the 16s in the hearts of our adversaries. However 16s will have significant disadvantages with lack of HOBS, LRAAAMs. SOWs. The block 3 and even J10s if we acquire them will come with all the frills bells and whistles, along with facilities to integrate local weapons. This makes the prospect of spending money on the 16s illogical even at the cost of spending to establish infrastructure and training for the J10s( I still maintain we will run with block 3 plus current 16s plusM3/5s till 2025/30). So where do we go? Much as I hate to say it, it maybe time to say goodbye to the 16s UNLESS the US comes in to spoil the party and sell new and old one at subsidized rates. This I think is where the tussle is and we need to see who blinks first.
A
 
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GriffinsRule

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Interesting thought. I think it is fair to say there are still chances.
Firstly US is still entangled/positioned in Afghanistan. In order to placate the Taliban it still needs Pakistan to intercede(irrespective of the debate whether Pak has influence over the Talibans or not). This is a dangerous game and we should stay out of it barring organizing meetings.
Secondly the release of FMS. I think given current fiscal strain on US it is extremely unlikely we will get anything. This is what we want but wont get. The US has a history of being a bully and it wont change its colours now.
On payment. PAF has actually not been denied F16s but US financial incentives are/what have not been apprived. Technically you can still request a sale asking US to loan you the money for the buy and then pay on delivery. The elephant on the room here is whether the PAF has the reserves or wants to spend them.
Armaments. In the current environment, 9X and 120C7/D have become imperative but the real question is whether the US would release those or not.
Lastly the utility of the 16s. I don't think anyone denies the utility and the fear factor of the 16s in the hearts of our adversaries. However 16s will have significant disadvantages with lack of HOBS, LRAAAMs. SOWs. The block 3 and even J10s if we acquire them will come with all the frills bells and whistles, along with facilities to integrate local weapons. This makes the prospect of spending money on the 16s illogical even at the cost of spending to establish infrastructure and training for the J10s( I still maintain we will run with block 3 plus current 16s plusM3/5s till 2025/30). So where do we go? Much as I hate to say it, it maybe time to say goodbye to the 16s UNLESS the US comes in to spoil the party and sell new and old one at subsidized rates. This I think is where the tussle is and we need to see who blinks first.
A
With the number of platforms Pakistan needs to replace, it will gladly take new F-16s and upgrade its existing ones in 2030 even, given that we will have the B52s with us into the 2050s.
 

ziaulislam

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Interesting thought. I think it is fair to say there are still chances.
Firstly US is still entangled/positioned in Afghanistan. In order to placate the Taliban it still needs Pakistan to intercede(irrespective of the debate whether Pak has influence over the Talibans or not). This is a dangerous game and we should stay out of it barring organizing meetings.
Secondly the release of FMS. I think given current fiscal strain on US it is extremely unlikely we will get anything. This is what we want but wont get. The US has a history of being a bully and it wont change its colours now.
On payment. PAF has actually not been denied F16s but US financial incentives are/what have not been apprived. Technically you can still request a sale asking US to loan you the money for the buy and then pay on delivery. The elephant on the room here is whether the PAF has the reserves or wants to spend them.
Armaments. In the current environment, 9X and 120C7/D have become imperative but the real question is whether the US would release those or not.
Lastly the utility of the 16s. I don't think anyone denies the utility and the fear factor of the 16s in the hearts of our adversaries. However 16s will have significant disadvantages with lack of HOBS, LRAAAMs. SOWs. The block 3 and even J10s if we acquire them will come with all the frills bells and whistles, along with facilities to integrate local weapons. This makes the prospect of spending money on the 16s illogical even at the cost of spending to establish infrastructure and training for the J10s( I still maintain we will run with block 3 plus current 16s plusM3/5s till 2025/30). So where do we go? Much as I hate to say it, it maybe time to say goodbye to the 16s UNLESS the US comes in to spoil the party and sell new and old one at subsidized rates. This I think is where the tussle is and we need to see who blinks first.
A
F16 will be useless beyond 2025 without aim120d/9x..PAF knows this and hence f16 wont be procured

The unique situation of 2005 is unlikely to ever reoccur

USA will simply leave afghanistan like it did in 1990s
 

ziaulislam

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With the number of platforms Pakistan needs to replace, it will gladly take new F-16s and upgrade its existing ones in 2030 even, given that we will have the B52s with us into the 2050s.
even the LCA will outmatch the f16 in 2035 time frame

if PAF will not get any F16s upgrades then running them beyond 2040 will simply be impractical, the same how we retire prematurely other US platforms when we didnt had any support

this isnt the french mirage where we had full independence and support from the french
 

GriffinsRule

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even the LCA will outmatch the f16 in 2035 time frame

if PAF will not get any F16s upgrades then running them beyond 2040 will simply be impractical, the same how we retire prematurely other US platforms when we didnt had any support

this isnt the french mirage where we had full independence and support from the french
If PAF is getting updates for the F-16 even now, why would it not continue to get them in the future if nothing else changes? This argument does not make any sense as I foresee PAF flying the F-16s for a long time, along with most of the countries that are already operators as well.
Even USAF will be flying them into the 2050s as the SLEP will give the fighter a 12,000hr life airframe.


And if PAF can extend the life of the Mirages 2 folds, I am sure the better built F-16 will have no trouble serving for 50-60 years easily as well.

The part about the LCA is a good joke though
 

GriffinsRule

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The thread by Windy on the ADF got deleted while I was mid-post but the reason it was a picture of the MLU bird and not an ADF version is also due to the antenna in the base of the tail which shows a bulge, which was clearly missing from the jet in the hanger but is prominent in the ADF F-16s.

14732_03.jpg
 

ziaulislam

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If PAF is getting updates for the F-16 even now, why would it not continue to get them in the future if nothing else changes? This argument does not make any sense as I foresee PAF flying the F-16s for a long time, along with most of the countries that are already operators as well.
Even USAF will be flying them into the 2050s as the SLEP will give the fighter a 12,000hr life airframe.


And if PAF can extend the life of the Mirages 2 folds, I am sure the better built F-16 will have no trouble serving for 50-60 years easily as well.

The part about the LCA is a good joke though
Yes by 2025 USA F16 will have
  1. Next gen antiship missiles
  2. AIM 260
  3. small diameter bombs
  4. anti radiation bombs
  5. aim 9x (& the newer next gen short range AAM)
  6. AESA radar and modern jammers
our f16s will have aim 9M and aim 120C
by 2030 aim 120c will be like todays aim 7 sparrow. Basically a "samosa" just like in Egyptian airforce block 52s
hence it doesnt make sense to spend billions of $$ for investment that will be obsolete by 2030/ 5yrs after induction..as we surely arent getting aim120d or aim9x

this isnt 2005, when aim 120C was start of the art..
 

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