What's new

Pakistan-China Joint Air Force Exercise "Shaheen-IX 2020"

Shah_Deu

FULL MEMBER
Jun 7, 2019
559
0
1,575
Country
Germany
Location
Germany
Sino-Pak Partnership: How China Used Elite J-10C Fighters to Simulate Rafale Capabilities and Train Pakistani Pilots

January-13th-2021

The Pakistani Air Force has faced a growing capability disadvantage against neighbouring India in recent years, with the commissioning of larger numbers of Su-30MKI heavyweight fighters and a small number of lightweight Rafale jets expected to provide superiority over the elite of a Pakistani fleet. The Su-30 is considered the most capable fighter in South Asia by a considerable margin, while the Rafale provides a niche strike capability and is prized for its deployment of formidable Meteor long range air to air missiles that give it a very comfortable advantage in range over Pakistan fighters. Although Pakistan is expected to largely close the technological gap with the induction of the JF-17 Block III lightweight ‘4++ generation’ fighter, which saw its first flight in December 2019 but has yet to enter service, it has also received Chinese assistance in training and preparation to engage the Su-30 and Rafale. Although Pakistan’s fighter fleet is comprised entirely of single engine lightweight aircraft, the bulk of which are third generation designs with the F-16 and JF-17 forming a four generation elite, China has deployed fighters from higher weight ranges and technological levels to the country in the past for training - where they have mimicked the capabilities of the Su-30 and Rafale to allow Pakistani air units to develop effective tactics to tackle them.



Chinese J-11B (front) and J-10C Fighters

China’s J-11B heavyweight twin engine air superiority fighter is fielded in larger numbers than almost any other aircraft of its kind in the world, and is based on the same Soviet Flanker airframe design as the Su-30MKI. The latest J-11B variants are considered much more capable in air to air to air combat than the Su-30, and integrate indigenous electronic warfare, sensor and weapons technologies including AESA radars which the Su-30MKI lacks. Since at least 2017, the fighters have deployed to Pakistan for exercises where they provided key experience for the country in countering heavyweight Flanker aircraft. More recently, as observed during the Shaheen IX exercises in December 2020, China’s lightweight J-10C ‘4++ generation’ fighters were deployed to Pakistan and tasked with mimicking the capabilities of the new Indian Rafale jets - the first of which had entered service earlier that year. Despite only entering service from April 2018, over 200 J-10C fighters are already in service and they are widely considered the world’s most capable single engine fighters of their generation. China’s Global Times state media outlet highlighted that many aspects of the J-10C including its size, aerodynamic characteristics, aviation and weapon systems were comparable to the Rafale, meaning it was a suitable aircraft to mimic it in training.



Rafale Light Fighter and Su-30MK Heavyweight Fighters

The J-10C uses a single WS-10C engine producing approximately 145-150kN of thrust, where the Rafale uses twin M88 engines each putting out 75Kn, meaning despite using only one engine the power levels of the two aircraft are similar. The Rafale’s use of twin engines despite its light weight is thought to reflect the limitations of France’s engine industry, which has yet to produce an engine with comparable characteristics to the latest Chinese or American designs. Use of a single engine is more efficient, however, and reduces maintenance requirements. With comparable levels of thrust, the J-10C is a much lighter aircraft using a very high composite airframe, and also benefits from three dimensional thrust vectoring on its engine for extreme manoeuvrability. The Rafale has a much higher thrust/weight ratio and no thrust vectoring making it much less manoeuvrable. The J-10 also benefits from a much higher speed, climb rate and operational altitude, meaning it can very easily mimic the French built jet’s flight performance.



J-10C with YJ-91 Cruise Missiles and and PL-10 Air to Air Missiles

The Chinese fighters advantages largely reflect the fact that it was developed by a country with a technological base and defence sector several times larger than that of France, which provides not only greater efficiency but also much higher end technologies. With the J-10C’s PL-15 long range air to air missile having a similar range to the Meteor, and both having advanced AESA radar designs which are difficult to jam and provide high situational awareness, the J-10C can simulate the Rafale’s capabilities very well. The Chinese fighter retains further significant advantages for a missile fight however, including use of the high off bore sight PL-10 short ranged missile which comfortably outperform the French Magic II, and a lower radar cross section due to its smaller size and stealth coatings. The fighter also has access to cruise missiles with Mach 3+ speeds for both air to ground and anti shipping roles - over twice as fast as the Rafale's own missiles. The J-10C is the most advanced Chinese fighter to have been made available for export, and while the lighter and cheaper JF-17 Block III integrates many of the same technologies, the fighter is reportedly being considered to modernise the Pakistani Air Force and possibly eventually replace some of the older F-16 variants which have served in the country’s fleet for close to 40 years.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/sino-pak-partnership-how-china-use-elite-j-10c-fighters-to-simulate-rafale-capabilities-and-train-pakistani-pilots
 

SQ8

ADVISORS
Mar 28, 2009
33,952
356
69,183
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Usually first hand info are kept under wraps. Sometimes results are leaked in interviews with participating pilots.
That is the trend with most professional AirForces. Regardless of the outcome, the lessons are kept quiet on an official level. Even the PAF pilots accounts of exercises with the USAF on a personal level dont get published until years later when they are irrelevant to combat application.
Can anyone tell how the paf in general and jf17 in particular performed against Chinese fighters in the recent exercises?
Lets assume one side did spectacular and the other just managed by, it still was the ultimate goal to do so. What the goal is that both sides learn from the experience and apply those lessons in their tactics and training to perform better. Only a fool would go out and boast “Hey, I beat that guy great in this aspect of the fight” because then their enemy starts looking to improve their tactics for that area.
 

MastanKhan

PDF VETERAN
Dec 26, 2005
19,625
160
53,818
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Sino-Pak Partnership: How China Used Elite J-10C Fighters to Simulate Rafale Capabilities and Train Pakistani Pilots

January-13th-2021


The Chinese fighters advantages largely reflect the fact that it was developed by a country with a technological base and defence sector several times larger than that of France, which provides not only greater efficiency but also much higher end technologies. With the J-10C’s PL-15 long range air to air missile having a similar range to the Meteor, and both having advanced AESA radar designs which are difficult to jam and provide high situational awareness, the J-10C can simulate the Rafale’s capabilities very well. The Chinese fighter retains further significant advantages for a missile fight however, including use of the high off bore sight PL-10 short ranged missile which comfortably outperform the French Magic II, and a lower radar cross section due to its smaller size and stealth coatings. The fighter also has access to cruise missiles with Mach 3+ speeds for both air to ground and anti shipping roles - over twice as fast as the Rafale's own missiles. The J-10C is the most advanced Chinese fighter to have been made available for export, and while the lighter and cheaper JF-17 Block III integrates many of the same technologies, the fighter is reportedly being considered to modernise the Pakistani Air Force and possibly eventually replace some of the older F-16 variants which have served in the country’s fleet for close to 40 years.

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/sino-pak-partnership-how-china-use-elite-j-10c-fighters-to-simulate-rafale-capabilities-and-train-pakistani-pilots
Hi,

Am I understanding it correctly that this fool of an author is saying that the chinese tech is superior to that of the French technology---????
 

razgriz19

SENIOR MEMBER
Dec 28, 2009
4,166
0
3,450
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
You also need to understand that at any given time a third of the fleet is usually grounded for maintenance. Even during wartime, PAF cannot put everything it has in the air. That 2.5 to 1 ratio is more like 3.5 to 1
Hi,

Then grow up a back bone---and think and talk like a man---. You are trying to put footholds in flimsy footings against a massive enemy---.

The 2.5 pilots per aircraft is not a large number.

Increase your knowledge base to understand that 2.5 pilots an aircraft is miniscule against an enemy that has 3 times the number of frontline aircraft.


Hi,

Switching over is not a problem---the problem is learning to go to combat in that aircraft at a competence level of 110%---the problem is to compete against a top tier enemy---.

I would say 5 years time period at least---but you have to take most of the pilots from the JF17 to the J10
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SENIOR MEMBER
Aug 22, 2016
5,034
59
18,171
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
That is the trend with most professional AirForces. Regardless of the outcome, the lessons are kept quiet on an official level. Even the PAF pilots accounts of exercises with the USAF on a personal level dont get published until years later when they are irrelevant to combat application.

Lets assume one side did spectacular and the other just managed by, it still was the ultimate goal to do so. What the goal is that both sides learn from the experience and apply those lessons in their tactics and training to perform better. Only a fool would go out and boast “Hey, I beat that guy great in this aspect of the fight” because then their enemy starts looking to improve their tactics for that area.
For the organization, the point of these exercises isn't to 'win.' Rather, it's to uncover deficiencies in what you're currently doing and, in turn, course correct. I'd say the more problems you discover with your ways, the more you end up benefitting from the exercises. If you're just 'winning', then you're probably not learning anything, but giving the other side a goldmine of info. The other real metric of success is whether you're improving in 'the basics' between exercises.
 

MastanKhan

PDF VETERAN
Dec 26, 2005
19,625
160
53,818
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
You also need to understand that at any given time a third of the fleet is usually grounded for maintenance. Even during wartime, PAF cannot put everything it has in the air. That 2.5 to 1 ratio is more like 3.5 to 1
Son,

Don't play too clever with me.
 

redtom

FULL MEMBER
Aug 2, 2020
362
0
540
Country
China
Location
United States
Hi my friend I’m pretty sure you know when you stationed someones assets in your country basically you are ally for that country at the moment we ahve very good relationships with China but not under these circumstances either you buy or leave it they won’t be stationing their assets and will not give you a hand in fighting but will provide best of their armour and knowledge/ intelligence
its like you are inviting india to ask Americans to station their F35 in Chinese backyard and a more robust problem for Pakistan
so either take it or leave it but the fight will be by yourself this is the Chinese theory of supporting Iron brother
by the way USA already using Indian facilities at the moment to refuel their P8 Poseidon
thank you
I understand the sensitivity of this kind of thing. So China will not send any combat pilots, just some sales people, and engineers. When the emergency occurred, the PAF did not notify us and borrowed our demonstration aircraft. We are innocent. We will send a very strong criticism and the pilot who takes the plane away will be punished by the PAF.

I also appreciate the idea of fighting on your own. That's the foundation of real strength. That's the foundation of lasting friendships.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom