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Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

DeusExAstra

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As an outside observer, don't see any problems with 1200-1300hp engine for VT4 instead of 1500hp. It will be good enough in terms of speed stiil. Judging by my experience of communicating with people in the zone of the special operation in Ukraine, in operations with a high degree of intensity, it doesn't really matter how fast your tanks are. Meanwhile, main point is protection and situational awareness. In my opinion, what really need for AK/VT4 is ERA complex for sides, which will provide more safety in terms of angle protection.
 
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iLION12345_1

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As an outside observer, don't see any problems with 1200-1300hp engine for VT4 instead of 1500hp. It will be good enough in terms of speed stiil. Judging by my experience of communicating with people in the zone of the special operation in Ukraine, in operations with a high degree of intensity, it doesn't really matter how fast your tanks are. Meanwhile, main point is protection and situational awareness. In my opinion, what really need for AK/VT4 is ERA complex for sides, which will provide more safety in terms of angle protection.
Nobody really said the power wasn’t enough, I’ve said before that the 1200HP setup in Vt-4 is more than enough because of the good torque output of the engine.

That being said, it’s also been said before that the Ukraine situation just simply cannot apply to the Pakistan-india theatre. The Ukraine conflict for Russia has been Ukraine picking off isolated Russian tanks operating with little to no tactics and infantry support, also one of the main reasons Russian tanks are getting blown up (apart from fuel starvation, isolation and poor crews) is because they have extremely slow reverse speeds. Once an attack starts they can’t go anywhere but forward.

Meanwhile in the Pak-Ind conflict, there are large, open plains and deserts for these MBTs to fight in, and less so urban areas like Ukraine. Speed and mobility will definitely be an important component of tanks in this theatre, both sides have always stuck to lighter, higher mobility and smaller tanks, apart from the Arjun, but that things a meme anyways.

Still, the thing about situational awareness and ERA, Side armor and better armor arcs is also absolutely correct and has been emphasized by many here before about the AK and VT4, they absolutely need that (and just to be clear, they have that. Equipping ERA to the sides isn’t rocket science, I doubt PA tanks would operate without them if an actual conflict starts, it would be one of the first modifications to take place, much like installation of cage armor during WoT), however the poor base armor on the side and frontal arc being small remains an issue, along with unavailability of APS systems.
 

SQ8

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To be more specific, I remember an officer had once come up with a report in the PA regarding initiative given to NCOs and younger officers and noticed a downward trend in how many individual tasks and initiatives were being given to this part of the forces and how this was effecting their decision making prowess. It has led to a trend in recent times where even senior NCOs, JCOs and younger officers are having to consult more senior officers over the most minor of things.

I’ve also heard this same thing from friends and classmates who ended up enlisting as officers, that they are responsible for tasks that ideally an NCO or JCO should be accomplishing on their own power of decision. This was apparently much less of an issue 15-20 years ago than it has become now.

The most dangerous downsides to it are the fact that these same NCOs, JCOs and YOs are then less willing to take important decisions during actual combat or combat exercises, leading to a need for an officer to be present where he ideally shouldn’t be.

So maybe we need an efficient downsizing where more tasks and initiatives are given to lower ranks in the hopes of getting them better accustomed to decision making. It’s always been clear that PA unlike more developed nations armies’ has a much higher ratio of officer to soldiers because of the Education gap, but I think now is about the right time to stare closing that gap for good. I remember just 15 years back, there were NCOs in the PA that hadnt even completed primary education. Now you need to have completed your FSC, that’s a major improvement, this can be taken a step further now, and I’m sure it will naturally as the literacy rate rises.

I also feel like there is a need to somewhat slow down the promotions from 2LT-LT-Captain. By the time someone is passing out from the PMA, they should already be an officer in command, of course experience comes with time, but having been among foreign forces as well, I feel like there is more of this trend of 2LTs and LTs feeling like “trainees” in the PA because of their young ages and quick promotions (which coincidentally are also a result of PA having a lot of officers)

Now I’m definitely not qualified to comment on how to actually fix these issues or If they are even issues at all, maybe they’re a better way to go about things than other forces do. But it’s just what I’ve observed.

And this downsizing, if any, might have the side effect of opening up more funds and hence pointing back towards better equipment.
The downside of that highly controlled decision making is visible in the Ukrainian conflict. Anything not part of standard doctrine and your troops freeze or dither like deer in headlights
 

peagle

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The Indian army has been downsizing, slowly, but it is. While the PA is never going to face the entirety of the IA, regardless of the size of the two forces, when it comes to mass mobilization, Pakistan will always fall behind. So I understand why PA needs to be rather large.

My point is that small-scale skirmishes seem to be not only more common but also more possible between the two nations than all out war, so maybe quality over quantity can be helpful there, especially when funds are this short. It’s still a miracle PA manages to keep a balance despite the shortages, but for how long? The economy doesn’t seem to be getting better any time soon.

Plus I don’t think PA should start reducing the amount of regiments or active troops it has, my point about downsizing is more specifically related to a sort of curse that many Pakistani organizations suffer from, they’re bloated, they have more people to do a certain thing than required, or certain people for no task at all, and often times this leads to said thing being done worst than it would with just one person responsible for it. I think with some reorganization PA can downsize efficiently by assigning more tasks to lesser people, there might be some workplace complaints though.

To add to that, With better equipment, the same 500K troops might be able to achieve more and cover more area, reduce casualty rates and increase mobility, than maybe 600K troops with lesser equipment? There’s definitely a balance to be had, I’m not sure if we’re at said balance right now.

What are your views on having a professional reserve force?
So rather then having a traditional reserve where young men a drafted whether they want to or not, but something akin to the old territorial army in Britain. A fully volunteer force but trained to high standards, perhaps we could adjust it's operational requirements to meet our needs, and limit a person to a fixed one year training period. Thereafter, they would remain available for duty as and when war broke out.
Fix a number, let's say 300,000 available personal, and design the training and availability period around maintaining that force.

I suppose the quality of personal would change with each passing year from the initial year of training, but that could be factored into the whole setup.
Establish a Reserve Bureau department, under the JCSC, leaving the professional branch to do their thing, but the Reserve Bureau would exclusively look after the training of the reserve personal, and deployment mechanism can be worked out depending on how such a force would fit in with Pakistan's defence requirements.

What are your thoughts, if I have not been clear, I could try and expand a little more.
 

Signalian

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More APCs compared to Indians no ? Recent developments point towards PA filling out the Gap b/w Sukkur and Karachi sector which has long been neglected I would say.
I said lesser not more.

Comparable would be good, through complete mechanization of Infantry Divs sister to Armored Divisions.

What are your views on having a professional reserve force?
Pakistan's reserve force are retired professionals.
 

Signalian

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The Indian army has been downsizing, slowly, but it is. While the PA is never going to face the entirety of the IA, regardless of the size of the two forces, when it comes to mass mobilization, Pakistan will always fall behind. So I understand why PA needs to be rather large.

My point is that small-scale skirmishes seem to be not only more common but also more possible between the two nations than all out war, so maybe quality over quantity can be helpful there, especially when funds are this short. It’s still a miracle PA manages to keep a balance despite the shortages, but for how long? The economy doesn’t seem to be getting better any time soon.

Plus I don’t think PA should start reducing the amount of regiments or active troops it has, my point about downsizing is more specifically related to a sort of curse that many Pakistani organizations suffer from, they’re bloated, they have more people to do a certain thing than required, or certain people for no task at all, and often times this leads to said thing being done worst than it would with just one person responsible for it. I think with some reorganization PA can downsize efficiently by assigning more tasks to lesser people, there might be some workplace complaints though.

To add to that, With better equipment, the same 500K troops might be able to achieve more and cover more area, reduce casualty rates and increase mobility, than maybe 600K troops with lesser equipment? There’s definitely a balance to be had, I’m not sure if we’re at said balance right now.

Lets look at a smaller skirmish. Bring the best weapons forward, keep time frame in mind which will always be a small window closing within minutes or hour, produce best results without loss. This is what is expected. Filter out the best eqpt that PA has.

The quality is lacking in current gunships, towed guns of diversified calibers and how far can an old MBT and M-113 APC get upgraded.

The proposition of lower casualty comes through use of machines - the UCAVs. It doesn't come through sending lesser men in combat since the enemy will put its best strength forward. The maths will be 500 own troops facing 1000 troops or 500 own troops + 12 UCAVs facing 1000 troops. The latter has better chances of reducing enemy from 1000 to 900 or 800 troops before enemy makes contact with 500 own troops. The equation tilts slightly in favor.

Another factor is 3:1 superiority for capturing an area through a successful offensive operation. Go into mountains, the requirement might be 7:1 or 10:1, which is next to impossible for PA strictly through conventional methods of war.
 

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What are your views on having a professional reserve force?
So rather then having a traditional reserve where young men a drafted whether they want to or not, but something akin to the old territorial army in Britain. A fully volunteer force but trained to high standards, perhaps we could adjust it's operational requirements to meet our needs, and limit a person to a fixed one year training period. Thereafter, they would remain available for duty as and when war broke out.
Fix a number, let's say 300,000 available personal, and design the training and availability period around maintaining that force.

I suppose the quality of personal would change with each passing year from the initial year of training, but that could be factored into the whole setup.
Establish a Reserve Bureau department, under the JCSC, leaving the professional branch to do their thing, but the Reserve Bureau would exclusively look after the training of the reserve personal, and deployment mechanism can be worked out depending on how such a force would fit in with Pakistan's defence requirements.

What are your thoughts, if I have not been clear, I could try and expand a little more.
umm something like agniveer or our mujahid force?

Most retirees are on reserve force until a specific time.
 

peagle

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umm something like agniveer or our mujahid force?

Most retirees are on reserve force until a specific time.

No, something entirely different.
I had asked the question because repeatedly it was being mentioned that Pak army should be downsized in order to increase its effectiveness.
My idea was that it could be downsized whilst raising a professional reserve, that would not carry the same level of costs, pensions, family allocations and so on, but still provide Pak army with properly trained manpower, which likely would be used as infantry or non mechanised aspects of warfare, in terms of tanks and artillery, which are more effective if used purely by a fulltime professional soldiers.

It goes deeper, I assume he has not answered because it's not strictly related to the thread, but other people have raised silly topics that still are responded to, but never mind. I might start a thread raising this question, for that I need to compile my thoughts first, and decide if it's really worth while raising such a thread. Thank you for your response.
 

Signalian

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umm something like agniveer or our mujahid force?

Most retirees are on reserve force until a specific time.
Maybe send in more robots (UCAVs) instead of humans. Back those UCAVs with fighter sorties which means PAF gets the onus of all operations while Army capitalizes on PAF's gains to capture an area.

Expand PAF and give PAF the primary role for all future conflicts.
 

SQ8

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Maybe send in more robots (UCAVs) instead of humans. Back those UCAVs with fighter sorties which means PAF gets the onus of all operations while Army capitalizes on PAF's gains to capture an area.

Expand PAF and give PAF the primary role for all future conflicts.
So long as the ownership is synergetic - not the ownership fiasco next door
 

DeusExAstra

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Sorry if it was posted before, does this statement have any point? I guess, if it's true, that APFSDS could be made on BTA-4 base?
1669876973751.png
 

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