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Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

waz

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I think we're talking about different things. My question is why did the US specifically choose to undermine PAF attack helicopter program? Well, isn't PAK-TUR cooperation in the navy more strategic?

From the perspective of Pakistan-Turkey defense cooperation, the US Senate seems to have targeted the Land army, not the Pakistan navy. Why?
The army tradtionally has always been the strongest arm.
With the navy the US knows Pakistan can turn to China easy, where as China's domestic attack chopper program is being tweaked.
 

iLION12345_1

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I understand fully what you are saying. I understand that at best our attack Helo requirement is 60 to 80 units max. I understand that at this rate you will not go for anything with local input. My idea was:
A. For the Turks to share production facilities which would be sensible as our labour costs are much lower as compared to the Turks. So we manufacture some components, perhaps the air frame (or parts of it) for us, the Turks and any other vendors:who want the helo.
B. Use a common platform basis for civilian use which would make enough numbers to make the project worth while.
Is there any evidence of this happening. In short NO. Is it a viable project? I would say keeping our combined needs in mind it would be.
This is the only way we would be able to get things going to establish something locally.
As to the Italians, we will not be able to make enough units on our own for it to be financially viable. This is:why the common needs of Pakistan and Turkey make the deal viable. There is no right or wrong here and a lot of imponderables but at least to me it makes sense.
A
60-80 is too high, 30-40 at most.
 

Irfan Baloch

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I think we're talking about different things. My question is why did the US specifically choose to undermine PAF attack helicopter program? Well, isn't PAK-TUR cooperation in the navy more strategic?

From the perspective of Pakistan-Turkey defense cooperation, the US Senate seems to have targeted the Land army, not the Pakistan navy. Why?
valid question you raised and I was not aware that Pak Turk Naval deal has American components as well which have escaped the embargo.
but to ensure a reliable and sanction free defence cooperation we need to look at ways to good alternatives that are beyond the scope of American blackmailing.
 

SQ8

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I think we're talking about different things. My question is why did the US specifically choose to undermine PAF attack helicopter program? Well, isn't PAK-TUR cooperation in the navy more strategic?

From the perspective of Pakistan-Turkey defense cooperation, the US Senate seems to have targeted the Land army, not the Pakistan navy. Why?
All Pakistan has to do is pay for the 12 AH-1Zs built for it and the engines will be cleared.
 

Dreamer.

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All Pakistan has to do is pay for the 12 AH-1Zs built for it and the engines will be cleared.
I wonder if this is the case or not? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.

I have commented on this before, I find it absolutely amazing that PA has chosen not to pay for AH-1Z. I was of the opinion that if payment was the only issue then PA should do it post-haste. But also I wonder if payment is not the only issue. It's a bit mystifying.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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I wonder if this is the case or not? Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.

I have commented on this before, I find it absolutely amazing that PA has chosen not to pay for AH-1Z. I was of the opinion that if payment was the only issue then PA should do it post-haste. But also I wonder if payment is not the only issue. It's a bit mystifying.
You see... Every desi uncle has a hill destined for them. They will die on this hill, even if it makes zero sense to do so.

This Army leadership found its hill. Now, this Army leadership is going to die on that hill until they move on. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current Army leadership passes. We could very well see a reversal with the next cadre.
 

Ali_Baba

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All Pakistan has to do is pay for the 12 AH-1Zs built for it and the engines will be cleared.
Or they pay the money and get soya-beans delivered - it is a lot of money and not worth the risk given the behaviour of the USA in dealing with Pakistan, more so now with the way the USA left Afghanistan.

It comes down to, do you trust the Americans and right now - no one does - or for that matter - will trust them again.

The matter was not just the payment of the AH-1Zs, but the reimbursement of billions of dollars of expenses which the Americans promised to pay and then ratted out on the cheque ...

Best to switch tracks and go for the WZ-10E's with all its warts - will be better than the AH-1Fs and then wait for the T929 with possibiliy a Ukrainian derived engine.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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All Pakistan has to do is pay for the 12 AH-1Zs built for it and the engines will be cleared.
It seems like the PAA is sitting pat on helicopters right now.

They didn't lose anything with the T129. The Turks agreed to sell it in installments and even set money aside from their own budget to start manufacturing the aircraft. The PAA would only pay on delivery. Since there was no delivery, there was no payment.

IIRC the only other vendor willing to sell to us on those terms is China. However, we haven't heard anything about it for about 1-2 years.

Instead, the PAA has been okay with giving Turkey more time.

It sounds like it's waiting for something.

I remember from the ATAK/Z-10 tests that endurance, range, high-altitude operations, hot temperature, and sand environments were all critical. The only ones to have scored well on all those requirements were the AH-1Z and AH-64D/E. The rest excelled in most areas, but not all.

60-80 is too high, 30-40 at most.
The attack helicopter requirement is 60. The PAA had set it since the late 1980s. In fact, Benazir Bhutto had signed 2 deals: 60 F-16s and 40 AH-1Fs. The PAA is still trying to get to that 60-strong figure. Yes, the new attack helicopters are way more capable than the AH-1F/S, but the PAA is still focused on 60 units. I heard it straight from TAI and others who would know (back in 2018). I guess sticking to 60 is to improve the qualitative capability, especially for countering Indian IBGs.

The original plan was to split between a "heavy" (i.e. AH-1Z) and a "light" (T129).
 

SQ8

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It seems like the PAA is sitting pat on helicopters right now.

They didn't lose anything with the T129. The Turks agreed to sell it in installments and even set money aside from their own budget to start manufacturing the aircraft. The PAA would only pay on delivery. Since there was no delivery, there was no payment.

IIRC the only other vendor willing to sell to us on those terms is China. However, we haven't heard anything about it for about 1-2 years.

Instead, the PAA has been okay with giving Turkey more time.

It sounds like it's waiting for something.

I remember from the ATAK/Z-10 tests that endurance, range, high-altitude operations, hot temperature, and sand environments were all critical. The only ones to have scored well on all those requirements were the AH-1Z and AH-64D/E. The rest excelled in most areas, but not all.


The attack helicopter requirement is 60. The PAA had set it since the late 1980s. In fact, Benazir Bhutto had signed 2 deals: 60 F-16s and 40 AH-1Fs. The PAA is still trying to get to that 60-strong figure. Yes, the new attack helicopters are way more capable than the AH-1F/S, but the PAA is still focused on 60 units. I heard it straight from TAI and others who would know (back in 2018). I guess sticking to 60 is to improve the qualitative capability, especially for countering Indian IBGs.

The original plan was to split between a "heavy" (i.e. AH-1Z) and a "light" (T129).
There is also a bit of a shift in how CAS may be conducted that is driving that change. Manned Attack helis are very flexible and useful but in terms of anti-armor anti personnel you have an alternative. The Karabakh conflict’s impact is still not being felt in enthusiast defense circles as it is within militaries. Whole integrated IADS and mechanized formations fell to systems that in total probably cost $80-100 million max. By comparison the unit cost to PA for its AH-1Zs was $39 million. If they spend that much on UCAVs even if armed with 2 Burqs and other systems the impact will be massive. You don’t have to kill 30 tanks out of a column of 40 to destroy it; just the lead and rear to cause consternation to set in and have the field leadership of the enemy start making bad decisions.

You can still have attack helicopters or other systems on site to take out additional tanks. But if you lost a AH-1Z to a MANPAD in such a mission it would be $39 million plus weapons cost and pilot. If you lost three drones it would be 1/3rd of it.
 

Hakikat ve Hikmet

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There is also a bit of a shift in how CAS may be conducted that is driving that change. Manned Attack helis are very flexible and useful but in terms of anti-armor anti personnel you have an alternative. The Karabakh conflict’s impact is still not being felt in enthusiast defense circles as it is within militaries. Whole integrated IADS and mechanized formations fell to systems that in total probably cost $80-100 million max. By comparison the unit cost to PA for its AH-1Zs was $39 million. If they spend that much on UCAVs even if armed with 2 Burqs and other systems the impact will be massive. You don’t have to kill 30 tanks out of a column of 40 to destroy it; just the lead and rear to cause consternation to set in and have the field leadership of the enemy start making bad decisions.

You can still have attack helicopters or other systems on site to take out additional tanks. But if you lost a AH-1Z to a MANPAD in such a mission it would be $39 million plus weapons cost and pilot. If you lost three drones it would be 1/3rd of it.
No wonder the British commands are now saying tanks are getting redundant, and they want yo get Baykar TB2 with TOT!!!

Social media chatters the cost of a Baykar TB2 is < 2m$ at the factory gate....
 

R Wing

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You see... Every desi uncle has a hill destined for them. They will die on this hill, even if it makes zero sense to do so.

This Army leadership found its hill. Now, this Army leadership is going to die on that hill until they move on. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the current Army leadership passes. We could very well see a reversal with the next cadre.
What do you think we should do?

And you've hit the nail on the head.
 

SQ8

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No wonder the British commands are now saying tanks are getting redundant, and they want yo get Baykar TB2 with TOT!!!

Social media chatters the cost of a Baykar TB2 is < 2m$ at the factory gate....
This is funny from a language perspective especially since both baykar and bekar sound similar but the Urdu Bekar has come over the years to mean “useless”.
So if Pakistan ever bought it then it would operate a very useful thing but would keep calling it useless.

Also makes sense why the word Bekar means useless in Urdu today because tec A bachelor is useless in the sense that no wife or children to support.

But I dither
 

mudas777

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These helicopter sanctions have been a blessing. America thinks its slowing Pakistan down and making it weak. Actually America is helping us stand on our feet.
Thank Allah for sanctions. Thank Allah for the snake America and its zionista fascists masters
It shut the mouths of our US suckers too but they keep on appearing from behind the different doors.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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What do you think we should do?

And you've hit the nail on the head.
I don't know tbh. The PAA was interested in manufacturing helicopters in Pakistan as far back as the late 1980s. However, the PAA never quite got the attention due to, simply put, a lack of money and a lack of options.

Today, the money situation hasn't changed much. However, TAI did some development work on a common 6-ton platform that can work as a utility helicopter (T625) and attack helicopter (T629). The only hurdle left is securing a military-grade turboshaft engine, which Turkey is developing as we speak.

I'd like to think that the PAA is waiting to see that solution and, potentially, producing it in Pakistan. For its part, TAI is game with opening its own subsidiary in Pakistan to do exactly that and more (like exporting to Central Asia, East Asia, Africa, etc).

I mean, it's just interesting that the Turks are developing the T629 when they have no need for it, nor do any of its buyers (as they can access the T129) except for Pakistan.

Not only that, but the concept behind the T625 and T629 is really close to what India's doing with the Dhruv and LCH (from specifications and capability standpoint). The Turks have zero incentive to go there - it's as if someone asked...

At the same time, the PAA hasn't moved for any new helicopters. It has aging Pumas. It has aging Hueys. It has aging Cobras. Isn't it all a little coincidental that the old light-to-medium helicopters and attack helicopters are just there? And, in Turkey, there's a project in the works (T625/T629) that suspiciously sits perfectly across those areas?

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PS: We can make this wish real if we move it to the PN thread. But tbh, the longer the PAA waits, the likelier I think an 'original' solution like T629 is in the works. Just IMHO.
 
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