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Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

araz

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Pakistan obviously prefers T-129 over WZ-10 because religion however it will still take some years before engine is ready.
Of course religion can make marked improvements to the T129's hot and high performance!!!!. When will you guys learn to accept that the the Z10 lost out to a helo that performed better in all the parameters it was set. Trials are on going with the Z10 ME and the results will determine what happens. The engine issue is a big one but to be honest kept the Z 10 from being competitive as well.
A
 

SgtGungHo

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Even Chinese have a problem with their turboshaft engine. They know the engine is underpowered (AND unreliable, but they will never admit that) and have recently announced an updated engine for WZ-10.

Better not touch any unproven turboshaft engine.
 

araz

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Even Chinese have a problem with their turboshaft engine. They know the engine is underpowered (AND unreliable, but they will never admit that) and have recently announced an updated engine for WZ-10.

Better not touch any unproven turboshaft engine.
You do realize that rules out both Helos for us. At some stage we will have to take that plunge but we will test thoroughly before inducting.
A
 

Ali_Baba

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Pakistan prefers the T129 because of the very high standards of durability it has been built to and therefore the longevity and lifespan it offers to the PA, in additon to the high technology it offers aswell. T129 has been built on a mature platform and to NATO standards. If you look at the usage of the current fleet of AH-1F/S.s etc, you will see they have really taken a pounding in the last 20 years. I think PA are looking to have that same capability in their next attack helicopter.

Can the WZ-10 offer the same airframe lifespan, durability, and low maintenance costs and longevitiy? We don't know, of course. It may do, or not. You can be sure, that the armed forces of Pakistan have a view and take their decisions based on the practicalities.

We are inducing JF17s with airframes that have a lifespan of 4,000 hours, whereas Boeing are now making F15X's with an airframe lifespan of 20,0000 ... There has to be a different in the durability design that allows you to achieve that \and that is reflects in total ownership and per hour operating costs !!!

I do think at some point we may see WZ-10's in PA, to have interopertability with Chinese forces, but most likely after the T-129s have been inducted and the WZ-10 has had some time to mature.
 
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Path-Finder

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AKŞİT DOMESTIC TURBOSHAFT ENGINE COMPARED TS-1400 WITH ITS IMPORTED EQUIVALENT !! TUSAŞ Engine Industry TUSAŞ Motor Sanayii A.Ş. (TEI) General Manager Mahmut Faruk Akşit compared Gökbey's engine TS-1400 with a rival imported equivalent engine in a program he attended. Akşit explained the aspects of the TS-1400 that are left behind and superior to the equivalent engine as follows: The following is the following: Since we have difficulties in material alloy supply and we have made a decision not to use materials produced from a single source that will be subject to restriction Since we use materials that can be produced, the materials we use are not the most superior materials in the industry; materials of a lower class; We did it deliberately so that we would not have trouble in the supply of two.

As such, our engine will be 20-30 kilos heavier than its competitor, as there are materials that can carry less load and carry less load at higher temperatures. We know that. This is not such a bad thing. This is how we tackle this: our engine has been designed to produce superior power than the imported engine currently used in all categories.

Let me give an example: Continuous flight power is 1411 horsepower of our engine, 1292 horsepower of the current rival engine. We are constantly generating 120 horsepower more power. At the moment of take-off - which is the main category of the engine, the take-off power of the rival engine is 1373, our engine is 1470 horsepower; It takes off with about 100 horsepower more power.

There is also an emergency take-off, they call it something, in case of any malfunction, especially if the helicopter has gone on a dangerous mission, the personnel must be removed from there, if one of the engines is hit and does not work, a single engine can be used to discharge the fuel a little, throw the ammunition and escape with the personnel.

there is an overstrain mode; they call it starting with a single engine. Our TS-1400 engine generates more than 1700 horsepower when starting with a single engine. The rival engine produces 1637 horsepower. So in all these power categories, we can say that our engine really produces superior power than the rival engine.
=================================================================================================

Not a bad strategy instead of going ott with materials which are difficult to obtain by using standard grade material to get things rolling and then the trade off is that it maybe 20-30KG heavier than the rival(Honewell Engine?) but the power out is higher.
 

jupiter2007

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Pakistan prefers the T129 because of the very high standards of durability it has been built to and therefore the longevity and lifespan it offers to the PA, in additon to the high technology it offers aswell. T129 has been built on a mature platform and to NATO standards. If you look at the usage of the current fleet of AH-1F/S.s etc, you will see they have really taken a pounding in the last 20 years. I think PA are looking to have that same capability in their next attack helicopter.

Can the WZ-10 offer the same airframe lifespan, durability, and low maintenance costs and longevitiy? We don't know, of course. It may do, or not. You can be sure, that the armed forces of Pakistan have a view and take their decisions based on the practicalities.

We are inducing JF17s with airframes that have a lifespan of 4,000 hours, whereas Boeing are now making F15X's with an airframe lifespan of 20,0000 ... There has to be a different in the durability design that allows you to achieve that \and that is reflects in total ownership and per hour operating costs !!!

I do think at some point we may see WZ-10's in PA, to have interopertability with Chinese forces, but most likely after the T-129s have been inducted and the WZ-10 has had some time to mature.
Chinese stuff is not as great as western stuff. Even their ship require more maintenance compare to western.
 

Zarvan

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is this the official name ?

great news, I always say we wait for this helicopter even if its 2030 by the time its ready

T129 has been a great success no doubt T929 will be too

what is the Turkish Army order book for this helo? how many

would love to see this carrying 16 x UMTAS missiles
We simply can't afford to wait. We need 60 to 80 attack helicopters now. Not after 9 to 12 years.
 

Path-Finder

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Gonna take at least 2 yrs
and NO threat of sanction from the yanks! Well your military certification is not like civil certification which needs far more stricter safety protocols to be adhered to and harsher scrutiny. Most military grade stuff has to pass the military standard and that is sufficient.
 

Polestar 2

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if chine had a capable engine, he would won the tender mr genius

Safran and AECC introduce the WZ16, the first jointly-developed aero engine to be certified in China

10 October 2019, China Helicopter Exposition, Tianjin
Safran Helicopter Engines and Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) announce the issue of the Type Certificate for the WZ16 turboshaft from the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). Installed in the AVIC AC352 helicopter, the WZ16 is the first jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities. Also known as the Ardiden 3C, the WZ16 has been jointly developed and built by Safran Helicopter Engines, with Harbin Dongan Engine and Hunan Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute (HAPRI), both parts of the AECC consortium. The Ardiden 3C was certified by EASA in April 2018.




"Certification from Chinese authorities marks a major milestone for Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC" commented Bruno Bellanger, Safran Helicopter Engines EVP Programs. "It confirms that the WZ16 is now ready to operate in accordance with world-class Chinese safety and performance standards, thanks to an intensive maturation plan conducted by our partners. It is also a historic moment for the Chinese aerospace industry as it is the first-ever jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely CAAC certified, and a major step toward AC352 entry-into-service".


Harbin Dongan Engine, the Type Certificate holder said, "The Type Certificate from CAAC is a further step towards the commercial success of the WZ16. It is thanks to the close cooperation of AECC, Harbin Dongan Engine, HAPRI and Safran Helicopter Engines, as well as to the strong support of CAAC. In the future, we will not only expand our engine portfolio but work hand-in-hand with Safran Helicopter Engines, to provide continuous airworthiness and after-sales service of the WZ16, ensuring smooth operation and world-class after-sales service for our clients. Thus, they can buy it confidently and use it safely."





wz16-ardiden3ccsafranhelicopterengines.jpg

Remy Bertrand - Safran




The WZ16/Ardiden 3C is a new-generation turboshaft in the 1,700-2,000 shp range. The Ardiden 3 family has completed over 10,000 hours of tests, confirming high levels of design maturity and competitive
operating and maintenance costs. It features a remarkably compact modular architecture, a best-in-class power-to-weight ratio and low cost-of-ownership. It also delivers at least 10 % better fuel consumption than engines operating in the same power range.


The WZ16 flight test campaign started in December 2016 with the Avic AC352's maiden flight.
 

xbat

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Safran and AECC introduce the WZ16, the first jointly-developed aero engine to be certified in China

10 October 2019, China Helicopter Exposition, Tianjin
Safran Helicopter Engines and Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) announce the issue of the Type Certificate for the WZ16 turboshaft from the Civil Aviation Administration of China (CAAC). Installed in the AVIC AC352 helicopter, the WZ16 is the first jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely certified by Chinese authorities. Also known as the Ardiden 3C, the WZ16 has been jointly developed and built by Safran Helicopter Engines, with Harbin Dongan Engine and Hunan Aerospace Propulsion Research Institute (HAPRI), both parts of the AECC consortium. The Ardiden 3C was certified by EASA in April 2018.




"Certification from Chinese authorities marks a major milestone for Safran Helicopter Engines and AECC" commented Bruno Bellanger, Safran Helicopter Engines EVP Programs. "It confirms that the WZ16 is now ready to operate in accordance with world-class Chinese safety and performance standards, thanks to an intensive maturation plan conducted by our partners. It is also a historic moment for the Chinese aerospace industry as it is the first-ever jointly-developed aero engine to be entirely CAAC certified, and a major step toward AC352 entry-into-service".


Harbin Dongan Engine, the Type Certificate holder said, "The Type Certificate from CAAC is a further step towards the commercial success of the WZ16. It is thanks to the close cooperation of AECC, Harbin Dongan Engine, HAPRI and Safran Helicopter Engines, as well as to the strong support of CAAC. In the future, we will not only expand our engine portfolio but work hand-in-hand with Safran Helicopter Engines, to provide continuous airworthiness and after-sales service of the WZ16, ensuring smooth operation and world-class after-sales service for our clients. Thus, they can buy it confidently and use it safely."





wz16-ardiden3ccsafranhelicopterengines.jpg

Remy Bertrand - Safran




The WZ16/Ardiden 3C is a new-generation turboshaft in the 1,700-2,000 shp range. The Ardiden 3 family has completed over 10,000 hours of tests, confirming high levels of design maturity and competitive operating and maintenance costs. It features a remarkably compact modular architecture, a best-in-class power-to-weight ratio and low cost-of-ownership. It also delivers at least 10 % better fuel consumption than engines operating in the same power range.


The WZ16 flight test campaign started in December 2016 with the Avic AC352's maiden flight.
and not for military applications......
 

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