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Pakistan Army's T-129 ATAK Helicopter Deal | Updates & Discussions.

RadarGudumluMuhimmat

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Allah da shukar ! We have wasted enough time and resources with Turkish weapons, which a strictly under us regime, like the harpoons missiles, the American did not allow the turkey to install the Harpoon missiles on the MRTP-33, we did get naked boats, so why they should allow the turkey to sell us American engines.. the end of story!

Anything you claim is not allowed is given to the Turks. You can also look for the error a little bit.

You can integrate a Harpoon in a Chinese boat but I don't know?
Considering Trump will not win election, Biden will sanction Turkey hard, and Pakistan along with it. So I suppose no T129 will be delivered to Pakistan. In the meantime, Pakistan should order more Wing Loong 2 attack drones. Drone is the future. Helicopters are outdated.


Biden never been to Turkey sanctions implementation. I do not know you're an ignorant, helpless before the election, but every Democrat like Obama knows he should threaten Turkey. Also nothing to do with the T129 engine export permission of Turkey, a country which can not receive even Zulus produced for error does not find itself in Turkey. I will continue to buy engines from America for 20 more years, but Pakistan will never get.
 

mingle

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Considering Trump will not win election, Biden will sanction Turkey hard, and Pakistan along with it. So I suppose no T129 will be delivered to Pakistan. In the meantime, Pakistan should order more Wing Loong 2 attack drones. Drone is the future. Helicopters are outdated.

You have no idea what situation US is now? 16 trillion$$ loss in COVID small business bankrupt high unemployment still in COVID and no end in sight along no smooth transition of power in this PE my friend all this China china talk is nothing more than hogwash to get vote. US is no position to dictate anyone any more they need business to recover not sanctions and they need both turkey and China to come out of it things are not good my friend
 
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Marker

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I wish the americans would block the engine, or stall it for a few years so the deal finally collapses. Pakistan has for years been throwing billions of dollars away on questionable purchases, buying weapons that do nothing to offset the mil balance (HQ-16, frigates and corvettes, VT-4, the list could go on). It is almost like there are people trying to sabotage the defence budget every year.

Buying attack helicopters for 1.5 billion dollars is stupid for a country like Pakistan. PAF cannot attain air dominance over opponent's territory, and during such missions these attack helicopters will get shot down within no time. Notice how Azerbaijan's attack helicopters haven't undertaken offensive missions over karabagh, even after a month of warfare in which dozens of armenian air defences have been knocked out. Also notice how Turkey didn't employ the T-129 over Idlib in 2019. In both karabagh and idlib, the TB2s have done the CAS work and proven to be far more survivable.

Better options therefore exist for the same set of missions a T-129 fleet would perform. Bayraktar TB2 drones: extremely cheap, far more survivable and can be bought in much bigger numbers. Their ability to get past SAM systems is revolutioning drone warfare. And if you want to deliver a heavier punch, Chinese long range (~300 km) Guided MLRS systems can complement the TB-2 nicely.

Ideally, however, given the lessons learned in recent conflicts, the money should have actually gone into the purchase of SAMs, ATGMs, and NLOS guided missiles.
Weapon system employment is based on battle field strategy of advisory to counter and neutralize the threat.

Importance of attack helis do exist, specially in Pak-India conflict when there is a "cold start doctrine" on board.

Employment of drones, loitering munition or even SoWs can become ineffective in full scale EW and electronic jamming.

Therefore every weapon and weapon system have advantages and disadvantages.

Up to date realization of adversary's strengths, weaknesses, terrain advantages, disadvantages and sometimes weather conditions determine employment of battle field weapons and weapon systems. Good field commanders know where, when and how to employ these weapons and weapon systems to inflict maximum damage to the adversary's war capabilities.

No military commander wants to keep and maintain useless, obsolete or less advantageous costly weapon system in their arsenal if they have the access to cheaper and more effective systems.

Pakistan armed forces commanders select weapon systems for procurement after in depth analysis of adversary war and support capability and advantages, disadvantages of the weapon system to counter this capability. Numerous test trials are being conducted to ascertain whether the weapon system is effective in actual battle field scenarios - variations in terrain (desert, green valley, mountainous) and weather (extreme cold to extreme hot).

The hard earn money being spent to procure such weapons and weapon systems to defend Pakistan borders, air space and sea lanes is fully justified.
 

Desert Fox 1

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Forget ATAK.

Z-10MEs are coming.
Has the atak deal been cancelled or what? Poor PAA will have take the helis it had rejected and like armoured Corps will have to operate a variety of aircraft
What's the status of umtas deal
 

Dazzler

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Has the atak deal been cancelled or what? Poor PAA will have take the helis it had rejected and like armoured Corps will have to operate a variety of aircraft
What's the status of umtas deal
Not cancelled. But the pace at which Chinese improve their systems is commendable. Vt4, now z10. ATAK is still not off the table though.
 

Desert Fox 1

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Not cancelled. But the pace at which Chinese improve their systems is commendable. Vt4, now z10. ATAK is still not off the table though.
So will the atak be here if the turks get the engine right even if we have z10.becuase we gave finalised the deal with them?
 

aziqbal

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isn't the domestic engine getting closer?

look it would be great to get the T129 with American engines today

however Pakistan knows this game very well

we waited for decades for F16 and even ones we paid was returned in wheat refund, guess what? now we have Block III coming w=off the production line with ASEA

if it takes Turkey indigenous engine until 2025 or even 2030 lets just wait

by then we can adjust the order can get T129 + ATAK II
 

Trango Towers

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isn't the domestic engine getting closer?

look it would be great to get the T129 with American engines today

however Pakistan knows this game very well

we waited for decades for F16 and even ones we paid was returned in wheat refund, guess what? now we have Block III coming w=off the production line with ASEA

if it takes Turkey indigenous engine until 2025 or even 2030 lets just wait

by then we can adjust the order can get T129 + ATAK II
Spend money on drones...future war is with drone
 

airmarshal

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I wish the americans would block the engine, or stall it for a few years so the deal finally collapses. Pakistan has for years been throwing billions of dollars away on questionable purchases, buying weapons that do nothing to offset the mil balance (HQ-16, frigates and corvettes, VT-4, the list could go on). It is almost like there are people trying to sabotage the defence budget every year.

Buying attack helicopters for 1.5 billion dollars is stupid for a country like Pakistan. PAF cannot attain air dominance over opponent's territory, and during such missions these attack helicopters will get shot down within no time. Notice how Azerbaijan's attack helicopters haven't undertaken offensive missions over karabagh, even after a month of warfare in which dozens of armenian air defences have been knocked out. Also notice how Turkey didn't employ the T-129 over Idlib in 2019. In both karabagh and idlib, the TB2s have done the CAS work and proven to be far more survivable.

Better options therefore exist for the same set of missions a T-129 fleet would perform. Bayraktar TB2 drones: extremely cheap, far more survivable and can be bought in much bigger numbers. Their ability to get past SAM systems is revolutioning drone warfare. And if you want to deliver a heavier punch, Chinese long range (~300 km) Guided MLRS systems can complement the TB-2 nicely.

Ideally, however, given the lessons learned in recent conflicts, the money should have actually gone into the purchase of SAMs, ATGMs, and NLOS guided missiles.
Drones are effective in asymmetrical war. Not when two military power confront each other. The ATAK mission will most likely be anti armor.
 

Salza

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You refering that tweet by whisky papa?? If resolved it's a very good news for PAA
Referring to DGISPR press conference few weeks back regarding engine issue. He hinted that there have been a positive development regarding t129 sale to Pakistan involving all the three parties. Lets see.
 

Trango Towers

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Referring to DGISPR press conference few weeks back regarding engine issue. He hinted that there have been a positive development regarding t129 sale to Pakistan involving all the three parties. Lets see.
It worries me that any American element can ground our machines. The objective should a long term Turkish engine.
Why do we nit have a helicopter program under project azm
 

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