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Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

iLION12345_1

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Is this credible?
This news has been known for quite some time. @iLION12345_1
I thought so too. We have been hearing of this order for at least 1 year if not more. So perhaps the order has been finalized. I still dont understand what is happening on the attack helicopter front and what PAA is doing.
A
Originally reported in Air forces monthly magazine, they claimed an official from PA at IDEAS had confirmed it. That was over 1.5 years ago. Maybe it is credible, its just taking far longer than it should. It makes sense from a requirement perspective too. I guess we wait and see a bit longer.
@PanzerKiel

Is the pantsir back on the table since the blank cheque was offered or is the army still looking for alternatives?
Alternatives, sadly.
It was always my understanding that these were for SOF missions. The ability to drop operators then give them CAS. In a full war they would still be of use as tank busters with the Kornets.
They are not the best for SOF insertion, not enough space for a full team, can be used in a pinch.
Their best use is Hot evacuations/MEDEVACs and CAS/Gun runs. Currently they’re being used to cover convoys in BL and FATA, though some part of me thinks that’s out of necessity due to not having anything better given the age of AH-1F (though it should still be perfectly fine for hunting terrorists, so maybe I’m wrong too). Kornets cannot be operated from a helicopter. PA likely bought other missiles for this purpose.
 

iLION12345_1

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I thought so too. We have been hearing of this order for at least 1 year if not more. So perhaps the order has been finalized. I still dont understand what is happening on the attack helicopter front and what PAA is doing.
A
They’re doing what they can. The way I see it, T-129B deal is basically dead, but it depends on how long PA thinks they can wait. The plan was to have light, medium and heavy gunships altogether.

Light is covered by Fennecs, T-129B could have been the medium, AH-1Z while it is a medium helicopter due to its capabilities it’s already bridging the gap between Heavy and medium.

Right now I think the military will either buy Z-10ME for medium and then for heavy they have either T-929 or a Chinese heavy gunship as options. If they buy Z10ME the Chinese heavy becomes more appealing. If they think they can wait and still end up getting T-129B sometime down the line, the Turkish heavy becomes more appealing.

While imo Z-10ME is better than T-129B, PA wants the Turkish option still, maybe because they think they can do more with it or because they don’t want to rely solely on China, it may be due to easier credit lines as well. Many factors come in to play, not just the performance of the aircraft. Regardless, PA will get something sooner or later because their roadmap of modernizing all cores obviously has aviation in it as well, what they get depends on how long they can realistically wait and keep AH1Fs flying (a few of those have been retired already).
«The Chinese side will import 36 Ka-52K Katran or Ka-52M heavy-armed helicopters from Russia for $20 million each».

Only $20 million per helicopter. This is such a good deal. The KA-52 is among the best Attack Helicopters in the world. Arguably among the top 3 best in the world. We signed a deal for 30 T129 ATAK for $1.5 billion. That’s $50 million for each helicopter. Dont Get me wrong. The T129 ATAK is a good Attack Helicopter dont get me wrong, but $50 million for each helicopter.... Not worth it. Let alone the fact that we are not receiving them due to the Engine being American origin

Pakistan could have bought 75 KA-52 Attack Helicopters for just $1.5 billion.
I think you’re severely overestimating the KA-52 as well as misunderstanding it’s role. The KA-52 is a good helicopter surely, but it’s not a support gunship. It cannot do the same roles as T-129B, AH-1Z, Z-10ME etc.

Its a scout helicopter meant for quick strikes (hence its usage for ship-borne roles). It’s not well suited to hovering in one place for extended periods of time providing cover to troops on the ground, which is what we need. Hence we have no use for the KA-52, it doesn’t perform the role we need a helicopter to perform.

The Russian helicopter for this role is the Mi-28, which FYI, we did test, and imo it could still be a realistic contender for PAs heavy gunship role, however how logistics would work with us having a medium gunship from another country, that’s up to PA to decide Wether it’s worth it. Given how some of our other potential deals with Russia went, KA-52 might have seen the same fate as T-129B anyways. And I have a feeling our second order of Mi35M might have as well.
 
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Keysersoze

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They are not the best for SOF insertion, not enough space for a full team, can be used in a pinch.
Their best use is Hot evacuations/MEDEVACs and CAS/Gun runs. Currently they’re being used to cover convoys in BL and FATA, though some part of me thinks that’s out of necessity due to not having anything better given the age of AH-1F (though it should still be perfectly fine for hunting terrorists, so maybe I’m wrong too). Kornets cannot be operated from a helicopter. PA likely bought other missiles for this purpose.
It can take an 8 men and that used to be the size of a team unless something has changed ( Or the PA uses different numbers)

If the Kornets are not for the MI35 what did they buy them for?
 

iLION12345_1

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It can take an 8 men and that used to be the size of a team unless something has changed ( Or the PA uses different numbers)

If the Kornets are not for the MI35 what did they buy them for?
SF teams go up and down in size, plus with 8 people in that space it’s rather cramped, you have to remember they’re carrying a lot of equipment with them. As I said it’s totally possible but it’s not the best heli For it.

The Kornets are ground based-ATGMs, that’s what we bought them for. PA has been stockpiling newer ATGMs and MANPADs for a while to complement older systems.

Kornet doesn’t have a Helicopter launched variant, at least not one that was actually sold/mass produced.

PA likely bought 9M120M ATAKA for use on the Mi-35Ms In Anti-tank role. 9M120 and 9K121 are the Russian Helicopter fired missiles.
 

Keysersoze

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SF teams go up and down in size, plus with 8 people in that space it’s rather cramped, you have to remember they’re carrying a lot of equipment with them. As I said it’s totally possible but it’s not the best heli For it.

The Kornets are ground based-ATGMs, that’s what we bought them for. PA has been stockpiling newer ATGMs and MANPADs for a while to complement older systems.

Kornet doesn’t have a Helicopter launched variant, at least not one that was actually sold/mass produced.

PA likely bought 9M120M ATAKA for use on the Mi-35Ms In Anti-tank role. 9M120 and 9K121 are the Russian Helicopter fired missiles.
Lol I have jumped out of a few helicopters in my time but if you are assaulting a position you will be stripped down kit wise (belt kit order) but if they are inserting for a more sneaky beaky op then another option would be better.
 

iLION12345_1

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Lol I have jumped out of a few helicopters in my time but if you are assaulting a position you will be stripped down kit wise (belt kit order) but if they are inserting for a more sneaky beaky op then another option would be better.
Russian air borne units used it for insertions a lot in the afghan and other wars, they had hundreds of these. We have 4.
However we don’t really have such a need; For COIN Ops there aren’t many hot-insertions to warrant using these over an Mi-17. Maybe when the war was at its height, but even then most Ops would be slow and controlled instead of an assault, for which you’d just flatten the area with CAS and then send in troops deployed nearby.
(The SSG did fast-rope into enemy controlled areas to great effect many times but I assume these would be quieter Ops with much more men than 3-4 helicopters can carry and with teams larger than 8 people).

Maybe when PA gets it’s other helicopters and there’s a larger number of Mi-35 they will be relegated to SF Insertion Use. However so far I’ve only seen them used for covering convoys And CAS.
 

Desert Fox 1

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The SSG did fast-rope into enemy controlled areas to great effect many times but I assume these would be quieter Ops with much more men than 3-4 helicopters can carry and with teams larger than 8 people
We used cobras to to provide gunship support and cover to the Bell and MI17s
 

PanzerKiel

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A section is 10 men based around two MG1A3s. Even though Mi35 Can carry a section sized strength inside it, but it isn't being used on that role by us at the moment.
 

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