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Pakistan Army Aviation Corps - Updated

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Have you looked at the outlay, the risk where will you procure engines from and who will supply avionics? You have laid down a requirement of 200 units. With different variants the-dezigns will have to differ even though the base may be the-same.
We have a chicken-and-egg situation. If not for constant hard-currency outflows, I would argue our helicopter fleets would be larger across the board. So the lack of budget to constantly fund imports probably impacted our ability to field desired or optimal numbers.

Not only that, but the PAA never even got to use the helicopter it considered an optimal workhorse -- i.e., UH-60. You need a design that fulfills 80% of your requirements in order to build a large fleet around it (or else you end up with too many of a specialist type). So, if you're designing an in-house project to build your workhorse, then chances are, you'll have enough of a requirement to support it.

Lastly having had no input into any design and venturing out on one's own without any building experience is asking for failure. Do we really have the 2-4 billion required to set up and mature a design. So it is not only time , finance and labour intensive project, it is a potentially high risk with high sink in costs. Even after all is-said and done we have a project 15 to 20 years down the line do you think we have the staying power to sustain the risk, the financial sink in costs.
It isn't only a question of how much it costs, but where that money is going. If you're spending on local R&D to develop the inputs, then you're spending on education, high-tech capacity (for development, test and integration work), industries that result in critical inputs, and so on.

Let's say the helicopter program fails, you would still have built a large high-tech capacity base to (1) recoup the costs by supporting other programs, especially in other countries that would like to use your IP and (2) reduce the cost of designing and developing a 'second go' of a system later.

This doesn't even account for indirect economic benefits, such as your eco-system venturing into self-funded initiatives. For example, the Pakistani company you asked to design and build composites can export those services abroad, further design its products, and grow. Moreover, these companies (plus their employees) pay taxes, so you get a feedback in additional funding power.

What I am proposing instead is a mulyinational collaboration along with Turkey and one other nation to share the cost and the risk and-get a sustainable project with the economy of scale as is warranted. We can have 30-40%work coming down our way and the cost could be down to 500 million to a billion $ but have a doable 0roject at the end of it.
Collaboration can be an option, nothing wrong with that approach. However, I wouldn't dismiss taking a project in-house entirely if we execute it correctly.

The point of defence R&D isn't only to build weapons, but to build a country's economy so that it learns to export high-value goods and services. The more you take in-house, the more you control in terms of the work, and the more you benefit in terms of gaining the critical or high-value IP.

Working with Turkey is an option (they've invited us), but they're already working full-steam on their own engine, rotors, transmission, etc. These are all of the critical and most valuable parts of a helicopter. You are not going to get a 30-40% return in workshare unless you help foot the bill for developing those critical inputs. We didn't do that when Turkey actually could've considered an external supporter. They will not let us in on it now that their projects are actually progressing.

The invitation they have for us now (re: helicopters) is on parts manufacturing and maybe assembly and taking up 3rd party maintenance contracts. This is good, but this isn't going to help us take the necessary leap to becoming a proper industrial power. Rather, we need to be thinking like Turkey, i.e., take initiative.

You really seem to have taken up the cause of indegenization without considering the cost implications which we cannot-sustain, the lack of any prior experience,no upto date platform of any significance to take bearings from ( Like the F16s) and at least to me it screams failure ( or at least highly risky). I think we enter one such project in collaboration and then look at going our own way
"Cost" is a relative term. For someone tied to fiscal books, like a general, it's a zero-sum equation of "if I spend on R&D, I spend less on buying from China." For an economist or public policy expert, "cost" is an investment. The money you put into developing a helicopter is, in actuality, an investment in all of the key industries we need to transform Pakistan from a footnote or joke, to a power with respect and authority.

We need vision and a "how to" mentality to build a country, not a "can't do this, no can't do that, no too expensive" finger-wagging mentality. If we left the nuke project to today's generation, we'd be smuggling hand-me-downs from China -- 100%. How we went from a nation that studied jig manufacturing, contributing to Atoms for Peace, and looking to build fighter planes in the 1950s to the status quo is astounding.
 
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Scorpiooo

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The current economic conditions and the situation in which we are short of helicopter in all 3 forces , the time and cost to invest in R&D is gone, right now at max PAC get some ToT to assemble helis is big ask, but practical

Doing R&D and Development of local heli now seems very non realistic , may one day in future we can afford this root
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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The current economic conditions and the situation in which we are short of helicopter in all 3 forces , the time and cost to invest in R&D is gone, right now at max PAC get some ToT to assemble helis is big ask, but practical

Doing R&D and Development of local heli now seems very non realistic , may one day in future we can afford this root
I'll frame it this way.

It takes USD to import helicopters.

Do we have enough USD?

Ask this question to our planners, and then start shaving funds from one program to fund the other. Or delay the program even more. Or cut your numbers to the minimal in the hopes of adding more later.

None of these are optimal steps, but they all set any hope of domestic programs back by another 5-10 years.
 

Scorpiooo

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I'll frame it this way.

It takes USD to import helicopters.

Do we have enough USD?

Ask this question to our planners, and then start shaving funds from one program to fund the other. Or delay the program even more. Or cut your numbers to the minimal in the hopes of adding more later.

None of these are optimal steps, but they all set any hope of domestic programs back by another 5-10 years.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) do you think R&D give any output with out any actual allocation of funds to R&D not to pockets, secondly we need some technology trasfer or partnership for any actual heli program to kichoff , which agian need heavy investment (which we dont have) ..

After investment of money and time in POF , HIT .. what actual output from both ... just disappointment .. except PAC which indeed done fruitful output.
 
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Huffal

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Or you know, it could be under edit.....
It must be one hell of an edit then if it's taking this long. Usually editing a video takes best part 4-5 hours at most.

Not 3 days. They must be trying to cut out all the dead terrorists I guess or it might not come out considering how a PAA mil mi35m was present doing some brrrt stuff
 

khanasifm

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The Russian also use to carry 14.5 mm anti aircraft gun on their convoys to engage folks on high mountains and suppress so convoy can press on

Lesson learned
 

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