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Sinnerman108

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Jul 20, 2009
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Hi,

Love that sample of growth curve---. The Mirage 3 / 5 are upgraded in a manner never thought that it could happen to this aircraft---even by the manufacturer---.

As it is getting older---the aircraft is going towards the peak of its performance---amazing---simply amazing---. Only the french can design something like that or the americans---.

Now can you just imagine---if we had opted for the Mirage F1 in the 80's and gotten the plant to build the as well---.
If i have one goat today, and it has 2 kids per lactation cycle of 5 months, then I will have 1 goat and 4 kids end of year.
however the growth rate will be much higher the following year, and then the following year.

The seeds of technology and industry that you sow in the right climate and environment, continue to give you fruits.
provided you don't plant wheat in marsh land.

Back to topic, the force disparity may not be massive today, however the investments that the enemy is making in technology, and the speed at which technology is being made available will lead to a massive disparity in future.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Aug 22, 2016
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Hi,

Love that sample of growth curve---. The Mirage 3 / 5 are upgraded in a manner never thought that it could happen to this aircraft---even by the manufacturer---.

As it is getting older---the aircraft is going towards the peak of its performance---amazing---simply amazing---. Only the french can design something like that or the americans---.

Now can you just imagine---if we had opted for the Mirage F1 in the 80's and gotten the plant to build the as well---.
Had that happened, and we moved into the 1990s, we might have experimented with fitting the SMR-95 turbofan engine to it (as the South Africans did at the time). In lieu of the F-16s, we could have seen a brand new multi-role fighter in the PAF years before the JF-17. And the PAF may have had the flexibility to be more ambitious with the JF-17 (basically, sign onto the J-10 since the F-1 was there for the lightweight role already).
 

Avicenna

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Oct 18, 2016
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Had that happened, and we moved into the 1990s, we might have experimented with fitting the SMR-95 turbofan engine to it (as the South Africans did at the time). In lieu of the F-16s, we could have seen a brand new multi-role fighter in the PAF years before the JF-17. And the PAF may have had the flexibility to be more ambitious with the JF-17 (basically, sign onto the J-10 since the F-1 was there for the lightweight role already).
In hindsight, it was a major missed oppurtunity.
 

Ali_Baba

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May 27, 2018
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Painting up a C130 and bringing it to RIAT is becoming lame, they need to send over the JF17s !!!!!!!
 

araz

PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT
Jun 14, 2006
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Not really,
Even if the air-frame remains worthy, the plane maybe useless
due to technological advancements and survival requirements.

How wise would it be to fly the JF when operational theater consists of 5G+ and stealth with engines
producing more thrust than weight ?
Cost considerations of 5th generation fighters would mean that 4+ generation fighters would still remain relevant in the Indo Pak theatre in the 40s. So yes the utility might not be as much as it is now but it will certainly not disappear totally. Even US is looking to fly the 16s till the 40s
A

The time is ripe to standardize mirage fleet for better operations, training, delivery and punch

The time is now to have rose 5 for mirage 5
Unless you are looking at manufacturing the air frame locally and fitting in a RD engine and Chinese Radars the venture is past its sell by date. Most frames would need replacement by 2025 which is why PAF wants to start replacing them .
A

Speaking of sensor fusion, i wonder if anyone has looked at a defensive drown swarm. We all know about their potential use in offense to both confuse an enemies networks and overwhem air defenses, but what about a defensive swarm. It would be a interesting idea for a nation like Pakistan who is trying to find an impenetrable defensive posture with just the right amount of offense to keep its neighborhood behaving well.

The idea is to stick radars on drones (for example, having small radars with say 50km ranges and datalinks allowing ground controllers to operate like AWAC controls. Other drones would be in the air with EW pods similar to growlers at various frequencies. This would cause havoc and blinding of any attacking force while leaving PAF with strong, multi-tiered situational awareness with AWACS, fighters, drones, and ground radar all datalinked into one network.
Technology and engine manufacturing maybe hurdles. We are progressing slowly but still seem dependent on China for essential supplies and designs. Azm city might free us up with more resources and independence.
A
 
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Tank131

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https://nationalinterest.org/blog/t...st-might-kill-russias-new-stealth-su-57-25893

What are the chances of looking at something like this to boost the capabilities of JF17?

Not necessarily by procurement from the US but developing such a capability with friendly nations like China for Pakistan’s existing fighters
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) and i discussed this a few years back. The Chinese developed EOTS-89 AND EORD-31 and combined them into a chin mounted sensor on J-31. These are an electro-optical targeting system and an IRST respectively. That is essentially what the legion pod is, and IRST. That is the main reason new aircraft carry IRST so as to fly with the radars off and still be able to see long distances. Supposedly IRST is in the cards for Blk 3 but no official word as to which one or its capabilities. These sensors list detection range of F-22 as 110km which feels a little overstated, but supposedly the a Russian Su-35 captured images of F-22 being seen on IRST scopes so who knows for sure.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...irm-unveils-new-sensors-for-j-20-j-31-416111/
 

Chak Bamu

RETIRED MOD
Jan 3, 2013
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Back to topic, the force disparity may not be massive today, however the investments that the enemy is making in technology, and the speed at which technology is being made available will lead to a massive disparity in future.
Hence the need to talk peace instead of perpetual war. Stay strong & opportunities would present themselves during peace-time.

Problem with efficiency mind-set is that it ignores strategic dimensions.
 

Yasser76

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Khan/Trump visit bearing fruits already? This authorisation was sorted out prior to trip

United Technologies Corp., doing business as Pratt & Whitney Military Engines, East Hartford, Connecticut, has been awarded a $253,708,434 indefinite-delivery-requirements contract for engine module remanufacture. This contract provides for F100-PW-100/-200/-220/-220E/-229/-229EEP engine module remanufacture for Foreign Military Sales (FMS) partner countries. Work will be performed at East Hartford, Connecticut; Midland, Georgia; and Midwest City, Oklahoma, and is expected to be completed by July 30, 2024. This contract involves foreign military sales to Chile, Indonesia, Taiwan, Poland, Greece, Iraq, Pakistan, Romania, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Thailand and Morocco. No funds are being obligated at the time of award. This award is the result of a sole source acquisition. The Air Force Sustainment Center, Tinker Air Force Base, Oklahoma, is the contracting activity (FA8121-19-D-0005).

Data Link Solutions LLC, Cedar Rapids, Iowa, is awarded a $235,566,335 modification to its current indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract (N00039-15-D-0007) to increase the ceiling of the existing production contract line item number (CLIN), spares CLIN, and systems engineering and integration CLIN of the referenced contract. This ceiling increase will implement the capabilities identified in the Joint Requirements Oversight Council (JROC) Memorandum dated Aug. 20, 2018, wherein the JROC endorsed the advanced capabilities of Concurrent Multi-Netting-4 (CMN-4), Concurrent Contention Receive, and Enhanced Throughput as the Department of Defense baseline for all future upgrades to any platform requiring Link-16. In response to the JROC memorandum, current Link-16 platform users identified the need for the procurement and/or retrofit of 3,370 additional Multifunctional Information Distribution System Joint Tactical Radio System (MIDS JTRS) CMN-4, F-22 Falcon, Tactical Targeting Network Technology (TTNT) terminals. This increase in scope will be in addition to the current scope in the original Class Justification and Approval (CJ&A) No. 17,226 approved April 25, 2014, for the MIDS JTRS; the amended CJ&A No. 18,012 approved Jan. 18, 2017, for the addition of the MIDS JTRS TTNT development effort; and CJ&A No. 18,415 approved Sept. 11, 2018, for the addition of MIDS Modernization Increment 2, retrofits and additional MIDS JTRS terminals, not including F-22s. The modification will increase the contract value to $1,224,529,670. This contract combines purchases for the Navy, Air Force and MIDS Program Office, as well as to the governments of Austria, Chile, Finland, Israel, Jordan, Japan, Kuwait, Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Singapore, Sweden, Switzerland, Taiwan, Thailand, United Arab Emirates, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United Kingdom. This contract also includes purchases to NATO and all NATO nations under the Foreign Military Sales program. Work will be performed in Cedar Rapids, Iowa (50%); and Wayne, New Jersey (50%), and is expected to be completed June 2020. No additional funding will be placed on contract or obligated at the time of modification award. Existing contract funds will not expire at the end of the current fiscal year. Future contract actions will be issued and funds obligated as individual delivery orders. This contract modification was not competitively procured because it is a follow-on sole-source, multiple-award procurement pursuant to the authority of Title 10 U.S. Code 2304(c)(1): only one or a limited number of responsible sources (Federal Acquisition Regulation subpart 6.302-1(a)(2)). Non-competitive procedures were approved for this modification under CJ&A 19,415. Naval Information Warfare System Command, San Diego, California, is the contracting activity.
 

MastanKhan

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In hindsight, it was a major missed oppurtunity.
Hi,

Not now---even at that time it was a blunder---. It was absolutely shocking.

There was no tactical vision at that time---.

The Mirage F1 was a beautiful aircraft---. Pakistan could have had aircraft and its plant and assembly for not a lot of money---.

That aircraft was the perfect aircraft for the Paf---because if you look at the JF17---it is so close to the Mirage F1 capabilities---.
 

denel

PROFESSIONAL
Jul 12, 2013
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Hi,

Not now---even at that time it was a blunder---. It was absolutely shocking.

There was no tactical vision at that time---.

The Mirage F1 was a beautiful aircraft---. Pakistan could have had aircraft and its plant and assembly for not a lot of money---.

That aircraft was the perfect aircraft for the Paf---because if you look at the JF17---it is so close to the Mirage F1 capabilities---.
Correct. Atlas was experimenting with one of the RD engines on F1s and the test bed is still flying now 20+yrs later. F1s are and were a much more potent fighter than the M3/5. Dont forget we were flying with helmet mounted sights on these babies in late 70's onwards mated to Kukris.
 
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