• Wednesday, January 29, 2020

Featured Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

Discussion in 'Pakistan Navy' started by MastanKhan, Aug 1, 2015.

  1. Viper0011.

    Viper0011. SENIOR MEMBER

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    I'd disagree with you there MK. Remember, that Pakistan will upgrade these subs to carry a portion of its second strike, I think everyone knows that. So to avert any conflict with India, Pakistan's traditional arch rival, these subs would first ensure a serious second strike capability. Which, IMO, would keep a war like scenario away as India would know Pakistan can strike all major trade hubs at will.

    Frigates are an issue, but it is a second issue all together. Subs and Frigates are related ONLY because they are Naval assets. Outside of it, the acquisition of Frigates should be done separately and in number, without impacting the sub order. They are both essential, but the subs are a LOT more essential than anything else, simply because they are hidden and they ensure a second strike to many different parts of your traditional enemy that no other platform does.

    Not when during an air campaign, the Indian jets take out all or majority of your medium and long range missiles......remember, your country is smaller and it gets monitored by Indian and other satellites that India has access to. So they already know where majority of your missile systems are located at.

    The Subs are a different story all together. They can "disappear" for long periods of time under water and possess dangerously serious second strike capability that's almost impossible to counter until after launch. Which then gives the other party about 3-4 minutes to react, that is, if they can even identify low flying objects!!
     
  2. Rashid Mahmood

    Rashid Mahmood MILITARY PROFESSIONAL

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    PN needs to develop its off/def assets in the coming years.
    The deployment should be based from 3 coastal bases, Karachi, JNB and Gwadar.
    All these bases have both ports and airports, so both sea and air assets can be deployed effectively.
    Specially the Gwadar port can prove very strategic.
    The offensive assets can be Subs, MBs and LRMPs.
    As soon as the Subs start coming in, the next focus is towards more surface platforms to replace the Type-21s.
    Missile Boats will be added slowly and gradually along the way.
    There is also a debate going on for adding a fighter squadron to the Naval Aviation. These can be deployed from JNB & Gwadar.
     
  3. ghauri05

    ghauri05 FULL MEMBER

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    The thing is,it will have to be 300-400 Km close to the shore n for some target deeper inside in India, submarine has to come still closer and that's a problem, there is high possibility of detection of our sub.
    I compared it to Indian because if I remember correctly India has got some K-series misslie with range approx.3000-4000 KM(correct me if I am wrong). SO the y don't have to come close to our shore.

    IF happens,that will be much welcomed!!!
     
  4. Shotgunner51

    Shotgunner51 INT'L MOD

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    I tend to agree with you. The subs and frigates, despite both naval assets, here serve very different purposes so shouldn't be discussed in the same breath.

    On the subs, they are primary assets but only part of the whole purpose - second strike deterrant. I believe Beidou guidance, data link and LACM (Babur or other upgrades, whatever they are, nothing less than 1,000 would serve the purpose) are other important components of the deal (i.e. a meaningful deal of building second strike capability should be way more than just 8 subs). We have limited info now but I suppose the subs chosen as strike platform should be heavy (say 3600+ tonnes) long range (e.g. AIP) and big (single hull large diameter, especially if Strike version of VLS is to be installed), hence I think 039C could be a good reference.

    However upgrading surface fleet with heavier and longer rang combatants does provide good support and protection to the sub fleet. I think 054A, 054B or 052C/D are appropriate platforms, though they shouldn't come in expense of affecting a minimum second strike capability. On financial, I think this issue is less of an obstacle, given the special relationship between the two allies as always.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
  5. HRK

    HRK PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

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    Only if things were that plain & simple .... do you know in case of any active naval hostility Indian Navy will be required to search the over 700,000 Km2 of Indian coastline and area adjacent to it, just to detect Pakistani submarines (in any case I don't think we will place more than 2 subs) 'if' we chose to place our subs within 400Km off the Indian coast.
    Dawarka 2 Kochi.JPG
    on the other hand we will be required to search around 150,000 Km2 area to track down Indian subs as for Indian Navy to enforce the blockade will be required to place more than one submarine hence increase the chances of their detection in comparatively small area within 400 Km off the Pakistani coastline & for that purpose 8 P-3C are more than enough one more thig that Indian Navy will attempt to enforce the Naval Blockade therefore Indian Naval assets will be placed at or around 'expected zones'

    untitled.JPG

    these handful assets would be required to carried out comparatively less mammoth task than their counterparts as explain above.

    Is your Aircrafts carrier 'fully operational' if not how much more time is required ... ??

    Once it attain full operational capacity what you think where your Navy will place it in case of war especially in a scenario when Indian navy will attempt to enforce the Naval Blockade of Pakistan .... ??

    Your Airforce Jets would fly in Warzone unattended ... ??

    secondly you should know that for IAF to take part in any Naval Operation will mainly have to use Jamnagar & Ahmedabad air bases which are approximately 400 & 600 Km from Karachi respectively; which mean they are equally approachable from our side as well

    P8i can defend itself from fighter jet or SAM threats... ??

    or in simple words what do you think P-3C or P8i would operate in an environment where they will face fighter jets rather to perform their primary task ... ??

    Plz don't try to fight & win keyboard war ....

    none is operational yet ....
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
  6. Arsalan

    Arsalan MODERATOR

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    mmm well... i was mentioning the SLCM sir. 800 Km is the range of Babur and even if we get that (obviously a SLCM with same specs i mean) will be able to strike 400 Km inside when launched 400 Km FROM the land i-e shore line, 400 Km deep inside sea.
     
  7. shah1398

    shah1398 SENIOR MEMBER

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    I did not say it will for sure evade the enemy but i was of the view that it can go for more kills than a frigate as it would have more time than a frigate to indulge in evasive manures/tactics. Frigate always carry "Kill Me" banners in hostile environment and that is why subs are supposed to be long range and are best choice for launching tactical and long range missiles and mainly used for second strike for the same reasons that they have more chances to survive/be invisible to enemy.I still stick to my claims as the history is full of such examples. But again anything detected has more chances that it b doomed and it holds good for both submarines and surface vessels.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
  8. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 FULL MEMBER

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    As a Indian I would be more happy of this happened.

    But as a Pakistani you should know that its not the right step if your potential enemy no 1 is happy about it.
     
  9. Psychic

    Psychic SENIOR MEMBER

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    And you are? Indian Navy Chief?
     
  10. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 FULL MEMBER

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    Absolutely not.
     
  11. Psychic

    Psychic SENIOR MEMBER

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    Then why should we be worried that you are happy?
     
  12. Ankit Kumar 001

    Ankit Kumar 001 FULL MEMBER

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    Sir go through the post again and point out where did I say that PN or you should be worried because I am happy?
     
  13. MastanKhan

    MastanKhan PDF VETERAN

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    Hi,

    No problem sir-----welcome to the board and enjoy your stay here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
  14. HAIDER

    HAIDER ELITE MEMBER

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    Sir, Pakistan is going for more sub, because it has far better technology and much better training in subs. Sub is low cost and very lethal weapon against enemy. Surface ships need much more maintenance and require more fleet. May beits news for you , its Pakistan who transferred much of French top notch navel technology to China, all new upgrades of Augusta etc..Even PAF showed them how the Mirage BVR works.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2015
  15. Blue Marlin

    Blue Marlin SENIOR MEMBER

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    Thanks:-)