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Pak Navy Should Reduce The # of Subs To Buy Type 054 Frigates

waz

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Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.
The thing is the navy would be looking to retire the old Agosta 70's, and therefore this urgent replacement prompted the order for the submarines. The 054A's will be coming, especially since Pakistan has started the early phase of building the lighter F22 frigates. I suppose the next deal will be for a considerable number of frigates to increase the size of the surface fleet.

But at the end of the day, no one can deny that 5000ton air-defence frigates are the need of the hour along with a potent land based aircraft strike force.
I'd go as far to say that if Pakistan had the budget to completely create a new air wing for the navy that is in excess of 60 planes. They train amongst themselves, they fly patrols, sorties etc and have nothing to do with the PAF.
 
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Donatello

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The thing is the navy would be looking to retire the old Agosta 70's, and therefore this urgent replacement prompted the order for the submarines. The 054A's will be coming, especially since Pakistan has started the early phase of building the lighter F22 frigates. I suppose the next deal will be for a considerable number of frigates to increase the size of eh surface fleet.



I'd go as far to say that if Pakistan had the budget to completely create a new air wing for the navy that is in excess of 60 planes. They train amongst themselves, they fly patrols, sorties etc and have nothing to do with the PAF.
60 is too much. We need deterrence, which when needed can go on the offense. This means a squadron of JF-17s along with a squadron of heavies....(18+14) units would be more than enough. Heavies can be JH-7, J-10 or if lucky, flankers from China/Russia.

In a perfect world, we'd have a navy at least as potent as Turkish one, but can't because of the funding issues......6 type 21 Amazons are to be retired, or as i was told by DCNS projects, two are already being stripped, so you need at least 6 ships to make up that loss, plus more for expansion. Gwader is not relevant today at all. Hardly any trade or ships calls there. However, the seeds that need to be sowed are very relevant today. In 15 years time we are looking at some serious growth.
 

Providence

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Would be a stupid move.

The 054 in my opinion won't be able to hold on against the new line of destroyers in indian navy's armoury.

On the contrary the subs offensive power might even be on the low end but it's ability to strike a psychological doubt among sailor's minds can be invaluable in a war.
 

MastanKhan

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Ok , but have you ever considered that there is a specific branch in the Navy which deals with procurement. At this time Acquiring new surface vessels is like building Burj Khalifa in a year. We have an option and that is to acquire ships off the shelf from china on lease and as the Gawadar network trade expands. The influx and influence will allow us to acquire state of the art ships. For the time being pray that navy doesn't waste money on luxury housing scheme.
Hu,

The things changed at a lightening fast pace during the onslaught of yemen crisis---. Iranian navy was busy.

Most of you guys are just reacting and not reading the post----. You can change the order to 5 subs----it will take many a years to get those 8 subs.

You can divert some funds to frigates---pak navy is woefully low on surface combatant ships. Surface ships see more day to day activity than the subs will ever see. Your surface fleet stops problems from emerging and becoming issues---.

If we have an option to lease then we must lease---it takes years of training for the crew to be at their best. The thing is that the navy needs a potent frigate and F22p is a little too small.

A mid sized frigate that you would get now---in 2 to 3 years time your crew will be able to perform competitively.
 

In arduis fidelis

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From what i know, there is a long term plan in the making for the PN. The reason to go for 8 submarines is that soon you'll be having 2 Agosta 70s retiring, meaning by the time first Chinese sub is delivered, you'll be down to just 3 Agosta 90s, which will be nearing their refits (first boat made in 1999). Submarines will take a long time to sign, assemble and then sea trial. So the Idea is that you will have a minimum of 4 boats, and then every year or so you add 1, for a total of 11 AIP boats.....out of which at anytime 8-9 would be available for Patrol. Now that is a decent submarine fleet going in 2020s.

Ships on the other hand can be procured at anytime. PN knows that it doesn't have any heavy duty frigates, and that OHP debacle really thew the spanners in the work. So unless they get 5 more OHPs and get them something like GENESIS upgrade in the next couple of years, i don't see the US route happening. So Ships too will come from China.
Now the quoted figures for Submarine deal is 4-5 billions, which comes to about 700 million USD per boat.....that is an outrageously high cost for a 2500 ton sub class....you can have Scorpene/Type 214 in that money. So i think the deal involves some ships as well, improved F-22ps or Type54. But since the source would be China, and they have some really credible offerings for ships, i think PN considers Submarines more of a headache to customize and assemble than ships. Submarine technology is a whole lot different engineering than Ships. So when they see fit, they can order the ships and fast track them. I think China would be generously financing the loans on low interest, because a sizeable navy in Pakistan's own hands assures them that IN is kept busy on that front as well as the fast growing Chinese navy.

But at the end of the day, no one can deny that 5000ton air-defence frigates are the need of the hour along with a potent land based aircraft strike force.
Sir in my talk with a navy official, he said that PN itself refused OHPs,something about depth clearance in the port,they were too deep to come into the shallow port and the one we got was on request of United states itself .According to him it was to counter growing chinese influence in our navy.But your statement suggests otherwise can you please clear up on this point.
 

MastanKhan

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60 is too much. We need deterrence, which when needed can go on the offense. This means a squadron of JF-17s along with a squadron of heavies....(18+14) units would be more than enough. Heavies can be JH-7, J-10 or if lucky, flankers from China/Russia.

In a perfect world, we'd have a navy at least as potent as Turkish one, but can't because of the funding issues......6 type 21 Amazons are to be retired, or as i was told by DCNS projects, two are already being stripped, so you need at least 6 ships to make up that loss, plus more for expansion. Gwader is not relevant today at all. Hardly any trade or ships calls there. However, the seeds that need to be sowed are very relevant today. In 15 years time we are looking at some serious growth.
Hi,

I think that 24 is a good number for JH7B type aircraft and being complimented by a similar number of JF 17's.
 

Blue Marlin

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At my age it is not the first time and it won't be the last time either that I hit my head.
Funny hahahaha

Kid---you are a new poster and have enthusiaism in your posts----but you don't know didley sh-it about subs and submarine warfare. You can talk smart and that is fine---but it won't take you far.

well if a kid is 35 years old then you must be quiet old indeed. i research defence and politics at a top British university.
what do you mean by "You can talk smart and that is fine---but it won't take you far."?



Subs don't stop ships from leaving----they can either sink it or lay dormant----because once the sub surfaces or displays it location---it becomes vulnerable---once it stops at ship--- The moment the subs displays its position---it is doomed---it is dead----that is the analogy that it works under.

when you have a sub outside of a adversary port there is no point in sending out a ship as it would be suicide.
you would find ship at sea and being replenished by tankers/replenisher. yes i am very well aware when a sub surfaces or even uses it's snorkel its postion is comprimised and is in fact a sitting duck. but with advancement's in aip technology more in particular fuel cell and some stirling aip's are very efficient and are have good endurance. maximum they can stay submerged is about 30days at 8kn's which is very good. nuclear subs can stay underwater for as long as they like dependant on food. but you dont have nuclear subs.



What if the ship is a decoy and is carrying depth charges---or that if a ship is a decoy and there is a anti submarine helicopter sitting on its decks under a tarp ready to take off----or what if the ship is a decoy and has an anti sub aircraft lurking in the skies a short distance away.
these points are based on "what if" so im not going to attempt to answer.


The surface ships are important---as a matter of fact they are more important under all circumstances---you never want to show the position of your subs under any circumstances unless you attack.
ships are one of the front line system a navy has. but in your case "pakistans" subs are more useful than frigates. as it keeps the adversary on it toes. they can see a sip and know where it is but a sub is completely different.



The surface ships act as policemen and take charge of any activity taking place on the seas.
when you mean surface ship as policemen im assuming the surface ships is the coast guard thats there job. the navy is defending a country and it's interests

you right in the sense that Pakistan does need frigates. lets face it the f22p is a very light frigate. and speaking to an analyst who specific in Pakistan's military. told me Pakistan needs at least 12-14 frigates with at least 4 being in the anti air-role. if you have the financial capability then its a possibility. and at least 6 destroyers.

scrap the deal spend money for demolish madrasas and open schools .
it's a start i guess.
SBP to set up centers of excellence in Islamic finance at 3 institutions | Pakistan Today
 

Super Falcon

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Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.
I agree with you but if u want havier than go for destroyer they have more fire piwer than any frigate and with it our navy will be having multi type platforms rather than one dimensional force
 

vizier

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Recently usa tested tomahawks against surface ships. It theoratically has 1000km range launched from submarines or surface ships. So instantly the aim is to cover all naval targets at once.
Submarines cant be detected by radar so they are less vulnurable. They can launch cruise-antiship missiles as well. To counter anti submarine measures mini surface stealth boats can be bought or developed. China and Iran both have those mini boats.
 

Blue Marlin

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The thing is the navy would be looking to retire the old Agosta 70's, and therefore this urgent replacement prompted the order for the submarines. The 054A's will be coming, especially since Pakistan has started the early phase of building the lighter F22 frigates. I suppose the next deal will be for a considerable number of frigates to increase the size of eh surface fleet.
dont you think with Pakistan spending a huge amount of money on subs, frigates is sort of out of the question for now?
 

Zarvan

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Hi,

There is an issue with pak navy---. It does not have a potent frigate---. The F22 P are lightweight Frigates---.

The navy must have something that is heavier and more potent. The thing is that the situation in the region is changing by the day---on one side is India and on the other side is Iran coming into the game as a new player.
The Arabian sea is suddenly going to get crowded and there will be power positioning in the region. The U S navy is going to be pulling out its aircraft carrier out of the region pretty soon and with Gwadar port coming into operation---pak navy does need the presence of a stronger surface fleet.

Pakistan navy should reconsider the purchase of 8 submarine---and reduce it by 2 or 3 at this time. It should rather invest 1 billion dollars in 2 TYPE 054 Frigates and 3--4 upgraded version of Type F22P class frigates.

In 2 to 3 years from now---it can increase the order for the submarines.
No need to reduce order of submarines but yes as we have ordered 4 F-22 P we also need to get 4 Type 54 A and also go for some good corvette at least 4 of them also
 

shah1398

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Pakistan has been following the policy of playing smart since very start. The main reason was funds constraints. It holds good for Air Force and Strategic Missiles.So rather than crowding the seas with Frigates in large numbers it would be more appropriate to get potent submarines in less numbers. By law submarines have more chances to survive and hit back at enemy n number of times even if spotted/ detected by Sonar, anti submarine aircraft n Heli, Submarine killer frigates etc. In case of frigates either U r gone or the enemy when detected.
 

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