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Pak-India education compared by Pervez Hoodboy

Peshwa

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Damn, I have zero say in what script the Maharashtrians want to choose for Marathi language. Stop misquoting me. But I do believe a progressive government (which India will never see in another two decades) should romanize all the languages
Not true, I’m almost confident the next elections will see a new govt, A coalition govt. but a new one.

I also agree with the Romanizing of the language for purposes of education.

But the scripts, both Hindi and Urdu have their charm and should be promoted equally.

When did the highlighted happen?

Yes, why not? The Tamils, Bengals and Gujaratis are already learning a different script which is not the same as Hindi. Why can't Marathi kids do the same? They needn't learn Hindi at all except for spoken communications.

In the hypothetical situation the Marathi kids learn Nastaliq (Anjuman-e-Islam students in Mumbai do it despite being Maharashtra Board), they can also code-switch to Marathi language in Devangari script if it's a part of the curriculum
Am I sensing that your sole gripe is with the language Hindi and its nationalization here? Not the education reforms in general?
 

Shantanu_Left

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Here you’re just pandering to your audiences. You’re a smart chap, I expect you to at least find the logic and motivation behind certain moves and not blindly criticize each news item, just because it’s been recommended by the BJP.
I do not like to pander to any audiences.

But it's impossible for me to see eye to eye with anything the BJP does. I must oppose them out of a long-formed habit. Something about the BJP-RSS leaders makes me cringe...even the likes of Atal Bihari Vajpayee were unacceptable to me.

A Sanghi is a Sanghi is a Sanghi.

We can discuss and come around many topics, but if it's tainted by the RSS stain, it makes my blood boil as a natural response.
 

Shantanu_Left

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Not true, I’m almost confident the next elections will see a new govt, A coalition govt. but a new one.

I also agree with the Romanizing of the language for purposes of education.
All right, I'll buy you a feni when I'm in Goa next year.
 

Peshwa

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I do not like to pander to any audiences.

But it's impossible for me to see eye to eye with anything the BJP does. I must oppose them out of a long-formed habit. Something about the BJP-RSS leaders makes me cringe...even the likes of Atal Bihari Vajpayee were unacceptable to me.

A Sanghi is a Sanghi is a Sanghi.

We can discuss and come around many topics, but if it's tainted by the RSS stain, it makes my blood boil as a natural response.
Trust me, the cringe is equally strong on my end.

But I have also over the years become tolerant to various political narratives.
I will reference My favorite professor from Columbia, Mr. Robert Bontempo who's negotiations class changed my outlook on dealing with dissent.
His view is that when dealing with somebody who is on the opposite side of the spectrum to your thoughts, one must not take a blanket approach to opposing their ideas. The ones we call "crazy", like a jihadist or a violent Sanghi, believes his actions are for the greater good. Their belief system is equally strong as yours.
So a staunch liberal and strong right wing are two sides of the same coin. Because again, to you your right is right and he/she feels the same way. You can only change opinions of somebody who is in the middle, not on either end of the spectrum.
In this scenario where two opposing forces face each other, a tradeoff needs to happen, ie. in order to deal with this opposition, one must be willing to
a. understand their motivation
b. willing to accept certain "low level demands" as trade offs in the interest of gaining traction for your own agenda.

Of course some things are non-negotiable and that's where standstill happens. But where possible, we should be willing to listen and understand.
Not everything the Sanghis do can be right, and not everything they do be wrong. They too are Indians and they're doing what they believe to be right for India. I don't have to agree with it, but I can try to understand, interpret and respond without name calling and insults.
The aim is to find solutions without violence, which we can both agree is the one tool the "Sanghi" uses that we all oppose with passion.

Again, this is my approach, I respect your right to opinions, even staunch ones, but hope you get my drift.
 

Shantanu_Left

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Trust me, the cringe is equally strong on my end.

But I have also over the years become tolerant to various political narratives.
I will reference My favorite professor from Columbia, Mr. Robert Bontempo who's negotiations class changed my outlook on dealing with dissent.
His view is that when dealing with somebody who is on the opposite side of the spectrum to your thoughts, one must not take a blanket approach to opposing their ideas. The ones we call "crazy", like a jihadist or a violent Sanghi, believes his actions are for the greater good. Their belief system is equally strong as yours.
So a staunch liberal and strong right wing are two sides of the same coin. Because again, to you your right is right and he/she feels the same way. You can only change opinions of somebody who is in the middle, not on either end of the spectrum.
In this scenario where two opposing forces face each other, a tradeoff needs to happen, ie. in order to deal with this opposition, one must be willing to
a. understand their motivation
b. willing to accept certain "low level demands" as trade offs in the interest of gaining traction for your own agenda.

Of course some things are non-negotiable and that's where standstill happens. But where possible, we should be willing to listen and understand.
Not everything the Sanghis do can be right, and not everything they do be wrong. They too are Indians and they're doing what they believe to be right for India. I don't have to agree with it, but I can try to understand, interpret and respond without name calling and insults.

Again, this is my approach, I respect your right to opinions, even staunch ones, but hope you get my drift.
Like everyone else, I too engage in many of these "trade-offs" as you put it. But at least on this forum, I have no need to softpedal around Hindutvadi BS.

This is the right kind of forum for me to bash Sanghis and BJP as much as I want, with full support of the moderation team. Why would I want to dilute it?

Not everything you discuss on the Internet should be taken seriously. There are things about the Sanghis I can say here which I can't in the real world.
 

Peshwa

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Like everyone else, I too engage in many of these "trade-offs" as you put it. But at least on this forum, I have no need to softpedal around Hindutvadi BS.

This is the right kind of forum for me to bash Sanghis and BJP as much as I want, with full support of the moderation team. Why would I want to dilute it?

Not everything you discuss on the Internet should be taken seriously. There are things about the Sanghis I can say here which I can't in the real world.
Here is my last thought on this matter:

How you approach your internet life and comments is your prerogative. No one is going to monitor this nor should censor your views.
Nevertheless, you being on a Pakistani forum doesn't mean that you bash a group because you oppose their views in totality without giving some thought to why the political group made that decision. Pakistanis on this forum can do that because for them India is an enemy, period! Good or bad, their agenda is to paint India a certain way as a means to an end.
For us Indians, we have layers. There is a different India within the India that you and I know about, the India we want. And if a policy allows for that India to emerge, even if promoted by the perceived enemy (BJP), if it is for the greater good, it should be supported.

The education policy is one such example. You might be looking at it from a personal point of view and projecting it on the larger scale, thinking that everyone (read: Indian) has the same inspiration or ideal for how the nation of India should be. Basically a stand that your vision of India is the only correct vision. Don't believe that can ever lead to peace or getting anything done for the nation.

Your set of problems are yours, so your anecdotal experience plays a part in your views, but when evaluating this education reform, it should be viewed as meant for the "greater good" of India and its current circumstances.
 

Peshwa

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All right, I'll buy you a feni when I'm in Goa next year.
haha how did you know I was of Goan stock? Did I mention it in passing?

I'm a scotch and tequila man. Give me some Clasa Azul or a McCallan 25 and Ill be as happy as a pig in the mud.
Feni...eh ill drink it but don't expect compliments for the choice of drink lol
 

Shantanu_Left

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haha how did you know I was of Goan stock? Did I mention it in passing?

I'm a scotch and tequila man. Give me some Clasa Azul or a McCallan 25 and Ill be as happy as a pig in the mud.
Feni...eh ill drink it but don't expect compliments for the choice of drink lol
I know you have scotch and tequila class, but I absolutely love Premium Feni of Cazulo brand.

I can smell a Goan....that's the place I head to when I arrive in India. How the hell is that paradise even a part of India?

I love everything about Goa....from the lush green forests around Ponda, to shooting wild boars (Yes, I can engaged in that "boond" pursuit with a team of Goans). I prefer visiting Goa in monsoon.

For one, it's very beautiful that time, and secondly, far less tourists. If that state ever secedes from India, I will be first in line to take up Goan citizenship, LOL.
 

Peshwa

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I know you have scotch and tequila class, but I absolutely love Premium Feni of Cazulo brand.

I can smell a Goan....that's the place I head to when I arrive in India. How the hell is that paradise even a part of India?

I love everything about Goa....from the lush green forests around Ponda, to shooting wild boars (Yes, I can engaged in that "boond" pursuit with a team of Goans). I prefer visiting Goa in monsoon.

For one, it's very beautiful that time, and secondly, far less tourists. If that state ever secedes from India, I will be first in line to take up Goan citizenship, LOL.
The feeling is mutual my friend.
Even though Ive never lived in goa, everytime I visit, I feel my ancestral history run through my veins.
The Mangeshi temple was built with the help of my family and he is my "Kul Dev", I get goosebumps when I step foot in that temple, walking in the footsteps of my ancestors.

I will take you up on the Feni offer and the Cazulo brand. I must admit Ive never tried that brand but will search for it. It comes highly recommended by you, so I am in!

Cheers!
 

Shantanu_Left

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The feeling is mutual my friend.
Even though Ive never lived in goa, everytime I visit, I feel my ancestral history run through my veins.
The Mangeshi temple was built with the help of my family and he is my "Kul Dev", I get goosebumps when I step foot in that temple, walking in the footsteps of my ancestors.

I will take you up on the Feni offer and the Cazulo brand. I must admit Ive never tried that brand but will search for it. It comes highly recommended by you, so I am in!

Cheers!
I have seen Mangeshi temple from the outside many times.

I used to be a regular on the raves in Palaolem and Varca. Have been arrested a few times.

Of course, now I'm kind of cleaned up and "polished." But you should have seen me in Goa raves in the hippie dress.

Now from what I understand, many of those things have been declared illegal.

The Goan cops are damn corrupt though, and it's not just a standing joke. LOL.

I will be hoping to revive some of my ancient habits this time, and regain my youth.
 

Peshwa

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I have seen Mangeshi temple from the outside many times.

I used to be a regular on the raves in Palaolem and Varca. Have been arrested a few times.

Of course, now I'm kind of cleaned up and "polished." But you should have seen me in Goa raves in the hippie dress.

Now from what I understand, many of those things have been declared illegal.

The Goan cops are damn corrupt though, and it's not just a standing joke. LOL.

I will be hoping to revive some of my ancient habits this time, and regain my youth.

God you're bringing up some memories from Goa.

Ive done my share of "raving" in my younger days, but with age, I value my personal space, so have moved away from the general section to the reserved section so I don't have to smell the person next to me or have them drip sweat on my clothes. and More importantly, get my drinks without having to claw at the bar lol

I did Coachella last year, but came about disappointed except for Billy Elish and Childish Gambino's performance.
Was scheduled to do burning man this year, but you know....Corona.

I don't know if I have it in me to enjoy the goan raves anymore, though its been over a decade since my last tryst.

Lets hope I (we the people) can experience live music again soon....
 

Shantanu_Left

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God you're bringing up some memories from Goa.

Ive done my share of "raving" in my younger days, but with age, I value my personal space, so have moved away from the general section to the reserved section so I don't have to smell the person next to me or have them drip sweat on my clothes. and More importantly, get my drinks without having to claw at the bar lol

I did Coachella last year, but came about disappointed except for Billy Elish and Childish Gambino's performance.
Was scheduled to do burning man this year, but you know....Corona.

I don't know if I have it in me to enjoy the goan raves anymore, though its been over a decade since my last tryst.

Lets hope I (we the people) can experience live music again soon....
It's been a decade for me as well, last time I did in 2011. Although I did visit Goa in 2015, and last year as well, it was a very muted performance.

By God, I want to bring back that youthful exuberance.
 

Cookie Monster

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My views were concerning India alone. Our kids there are getting dumber with each new generation: they will not be separated from their smartphones and consoles.

On top of that, expecting them to learn Nastaliq or Devangari is a bit too much. Many countries have successfully romanized their languages: Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, Philippines, Georgia...Chinese have pinyin, the Desis are using Roman letters right here on this forum.

Can't fight the future.
So just bcuz smartphones and gadgets are the future...we should do away with the native script of the language...bcuz it's a "bit too much". This sounds more like giving up rather than trying.

Like I said...I get where u r coming from. I'm all too familiar with using the English alphabet to write Urdu(have done it more times than I can count)...but I am still of the view that Urdu should remain as is...
...and this is coming from me(being fluent in both)...so theoretically I should have zero problems grasping the new change. Imagine those who are not well versed in English...and Urdu is their main language they use for communication...they will oppose it even harder.

Of course I can't speak for India/Indians...that's entirely up to u guys whatever u end up doing. In Pakistan however...there will be great resistance at any such move...and rightly so. It is definitely doable...but romanizing Urdu...it will lose its essence. I assume something similar might happen to Hindi and other languages.
 
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letsrock

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A thought, but executing it among the regulars is a possibility; explaining it to newbies who have joined only to cause trouble, and to post flame-bait, or reaching them in time to align them to this is impossible.
People should post as individuals. whats the point in ganging up as groups i dont understand. I can only smell negative intents here such as trying to manipulate others thinking in to something which is not.
 

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