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PAF speeds up fighter force modernisation with JF-17 Block III- Gulf News

tphuang

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The problem is not introducing newer partners. The problem is the engine. Turkey says it has a viable programme for engine-development set to mature inate 20s. The chinese engines will be matured by then as well. The rest of the hardware can be acquired the engine remains the major bugbear for Pak-Turk products. The recent spats with the US has made the Turks realize the importance of full independence from foreign suppliers for major components.
A

Turkey hasn't got a clue how hard it is to build a domestic engine industry that's competitive. It just got stun by the American sanctions and trying to sound strong. It took over 20 years for China to build the domestic engine industry they have today and catch up with a Russian one that hasn't moved much. It's still 20 years behind GE/RR/PW. These things are not easy, but China has finally seen the fruit of its investment in the past 5 years.

PAF's best hope for 5th generation aircraft is FC-31. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It has the full backing of Chinese government. Navy version came first, but land based version will come soon enough.
 

The Eagle

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To project an NGF for PAF; one has to revisit JF-17 Thunder program from inception, birth and becoming reality. Just go through the route that how it became a success in its domain. Just don't pay too much attention to the parties involved but, read & look closely as how the fighter was born. Similarly, NGF under AZM is reality. Who will be participating along side the PAC and which airframe or design will be chosen; depends upon anyone's understanding or best guess for the time being until PAC talks openly.
 

araz

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Turkey hasn't got a clue how hard it is to build a domestic engine industry that's competitive. It just got stun by the American sanctions and trying to sound strong. It took over 20 years for China to build the domestic engine industry they have today and catch up with a Russian one that hasn't moved much. It's still 20 years behind GE/RR/PW. These things are not easy, but China has finally seen the fruit of its investment in the past 5 years.

PAF's best hope for 5th generation aircraft is FC-31. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It has the full backing of Chinese government. Navy version came first, but land based version will come soon enough.
I rhink the advantage the Turks have is they are already building engines for GE and have had some exposure to single crystal building of turbine blades. I was not born yesterday and have some grasp of the problems that the Chinese faced and are still facing. The Turks for their Helicopter engine have collaborated with Ulraine while building their own engine. Their own engine was due to come out by 2023 but till we see something in black and white we have to remain observant. The T129 saga is fresh in PAA mind so any further forays with the Turks will be after a much closer scrutiny of their support structure.
Once competing products/are available PAF will make its mind up if it needs to go with the Chinese or the Turks. The fact remains that at the moment there is no product from either side which fulfills the needs of PAF.
The other aspect to note is PAF's indegenous effort and to what extent it bears fruit. We are in the design phase but will have a clearer idea once the piccies from the design surface. Frankly with so many technologies lacking I fail to see how PAF will be able to bring even a protoype out by the end of the decade. Of by some miracle they do this would also have an impact on how PAF sees itselves evolving
 

tphuang

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I rhink the advantage the Turks have is they are already building engines for GE and have had some exposure to single crystal building of turbine blades. I was not born yesterday and have some grasp of the problems that the Chinese faced and are still facing. The Turks for their Helicopter engine have collaborated with Ulraine while building their own engine. Their own engine was due to come out by 2023 but till we see something in black and white we have to remain observant. The T129 saga is fresh in PAA mind so any further forays with the Turks will be after a much closer scrutiny of their support structure.
Once competing products/are available PAF will make its mind up if it needs to go with the Chinese or the Turks. The fact remains that at the moment there is no product from either side which fulfills the needs of PAF.
The other aspect to note is PAF's indegenous effort and to what extent it bears fruit. We are in the design phase but will have a clearer idea once the piccies from the design surface. Frankly with so many technologies lacking I fail to see how PAF will be able to bring even a protoype out by the end of the decade. Of by some miracle they do this would also have an impact on how PAF sees itselves evolving

The problem is you are equating China's industrial base with Turkey's industrial base. The gap between the two is pretty vast. I suppose China's military industrial strength will always be underestimated externally due to how fast they have modernized. That perception will change.

10 years ago, everyone would've expected Russia to have a 5th generation aircraft in service ahead of China. Fast forward to now, J-20 has achieved full operational status ahead of F-35C. And only 3 production Su-57s have been produced so far. That's how fast things have changed. From this point onward, China will only be compared against America when it comes to military development. Whether that's 6th generation aircraft, the next super carrier or the next generation stealth bomber. All things that would've been unthinkable even 5 years ago. It's up to Pakistan whether it wants to embrace its Chinese friends or wait for something to be available.
 

kursed

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The problem is you are equating China's industrial base with Turkey's industrial base. The gap between the two is pretty vast. I suppose China's military industrial strength will always be underestimated externally due to how fast they have modernized. That perception will change.

10 years ago, everyone would've expected Russia to have a 5th generation aircraft in service ahead of China. Fast forward to now, J-20 has achieved full operational status ahead of F-35C. And only 3 production Su-57s have been produced so far. That's how fast things have changed. From this point onward, China will only be compared against America when it comes to military development. Whether that's 6th generation aircraft, the next super carrier or the next generation stealth bomber. All things that would've been unthinkable even 5 years ago. It's up to Pakistan whether it wants to embrace its Chinese friends or wait for something to be available.
Pakistan has already embraced China, the forum et al, notwithstanding.
 

tphuang

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Your 5th gen jet is worst after Su57 in term of IR/radar RCS
It's still the best fighter jet after f35 and f22. And unlike f22, they can actually fly it more than half of the time.

Saying that china has the worst mass produced 5th gen aircraft is like saying someone have the 400 m world record instead of the 100 m. It's still pretty darn good achievement when there are only 3 5th gen fighter jet out there.
 

MastanKhan

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No, only certain political circles within the US try to portray it as a simple rip off, but everyone with a bit understanding knows that regardless all undeniable stolen data - and so far no-one ever claimed, the whole package of CAD-blueprints was stolen - the FC-31 is NOT copy. Alone due to having two engines it cannot be a copy. But you take this again for granted since it fits your opinionated it allows you to continue with this …




Again, plain wrong, since J-20 and FC-31 are totally unrelated. We all know, that the true SAC contender for the XXJ project was a large, heavy tri-plane design, that was less stealthy and allegedly less capable than CAC‘s design. In consequence, CAC won and developed the J-20 and SAC‘s design was abandoned.

In order to remain in fighter business, they started development of a smaller, eventually more multirole focused and carrier-suitable design, which became the FC-31.

Since at that time, it run not at the same priority it was „downgraded“ a private project aimed for export, but hey, do you really think in China a company like SAC is allowed to deVelop such a project with at least PLA and CMC agreeing?

Anyway, to portray the J-35 has a type that is full of issues and delayed since it is based on a lost contender and even more a copy of the F-35 is plain wrong.

Hi,

You are clueless about engineering---. It is not the first time that has happened. If the chinese had a better high performance single engine---they would have used that on the J31 and made it a single engine aircraft---.

In this day and age of technology---you don't need to steal the whole of the CAD design---but I guess you did not know that either.
 

araz

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araz said:

Yesterday at 11:42 AMAdd bookmark#122

araz said:

The problem is not introducing newer partners. The problem is the engine. Turkey says it has a viable programme for engine-development set to mature inate 20s. The chinese engines will be matured by then as well. The rest of the hardware can be acquired the engine remains the major bugbear for Pak-Turk products. The recent spats with the US has made the Turks realize the importance of full independence from foreign suppliers for major components.
A

Click to expand...


Turkey hasn't got a clue how hard it is to build a domestic engine industry that's competitive. It just got stun by the American sanctions and trying to sound strong

Turkey hasn't got a clue how hard it is to build a domestic engine industry that's competitive. It just got stun by the American sanctions and trying to sound strong".

Hi TP.
I respond to this statement which I consider quite unlike the tphuang that I knew. It is condescending.
While I have no affiliation with the Turkish industry or the Chinese one for that matter, my contention is that if the Turks have been building Turbine blades for GE, which is a major achievement in its own right in aviation technology. So it has industry which has rich experience.
Iam also not foolish enough to make a comparison between the Turks and the Chinese. The Chinese have now been building jets spanning over 6 decades and 2 generations. Their first independent platfoem which they designed and produced was the J10. This is now a matured 4/4.5 generation jet. Thwy are now making J20s .
In the engine technologies they have been building turbojets but have had to have help building Turbofans which they have now mastered and will soon have multiple competing wngines coming out.
However to say that the Turks do not have a clue is incorrect as they have been at the stage at which the Chinese were till 5yrs/ago. How they progress on is anybody's guess but if they say they will have an indegenous engine in 3-5 years. They will have a competitive engine in 5-8years. The crux of the argument is if they carry forward their experience of building components of GE engines, they will have much better metalurgical basis on which they build than the Chinese whose metallurgical basis is still being questioned. This will have impact on platform life, MTBO and failure rates. Whether this remains the case or not remains to-be seen.
I would say the Turks are behind the Chinese but the building blocks-of their industry are much more matured having input from the US and the West.
Behind they maybe---- clueless they are not.
This is my assessment of the situation. Iremain open to your version of events
A
 

tphuang

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Hi TP.
I respond to this statement which I consider quite unlike the tphuang that I knew. It is condescending.
While I have no affiliation with the Turkish industry or the Chinese one for that matter, my contention is that if the Turks have been building Turbine blades for GE, which is a major achievement in its own right in aviation technology. So it has industry which has rich experience.
Iam also not foolish enough to make a comparison between the Turks and the Chinese. The Chinese have now been building jets spanning over 6 decades and 2 generations. Their first independent platfoem which they designed and produced was the J10. This is now a matured 4/4.5 generation jet. Thwy are now making J20s .
In the engine technologies they have been building turbojets but have had to have help building Turbofans which they have now mastered and will soon have multiple competing wngines coming out.
However to say that the Turks do not have a clue is incorrect as they have been at the stage at which the Chinese were till 5yrs/ago. How they progress on is anybody's guess but if they say they will have an indegenous engine in 3-5 years. They will have a competitive engine in 5-8years. The crux of the argument is if they carry forward their experience of building components of GE engines, they will have much better metalurgical basis on which they build than the Chinese whose metallurgical basis is still being questioned. This will have impact on platform life, MTBO and failure rates. Whether this remains the case or not remains to-be seen.
I would say the Turks are behind the Chinese but the building blocks-of their industry are much more matured having input from the US and the West.
Behind they maybe---- clueless they are not.
This is my assessment of the situation. Iremain open to your version of events
A

It's just the reality of Aeroengine Industry. China has thrown a lot of money at it in the past 10 to 15 years and it is still 20 years behind GE, RR and PW. This is an industry that requires continued investment in the billions over many many years. None of the companies will disclose the real secrets that took years to build up. All new entrants need to learn things the hard way. What the Turks are saying is simply not realistic.

Maybe they will be capable of developing a domestic turboshaft that's usable on T-129 in a few years. The entrance barrier for turboshaft is a lot lower than high end turbofan engines. That's what we are talking about here. Advanced turbofan engines for the next generation fighter jet. There are a lot of companies/countries world wide that have tried to get in on aerospace engine and have not gotten close. Building a modern 4th generation fighter jet is a lot easier than building the turbofan engine for it. Building a modern 55h generation fighter jet is easier than building the turbofan engine for it. Both J-20 and Su-57 are still using upgraded versions of engines developed for 4th generation fighter jets. Just think about all the high tech countries like Japan, Korea, Israel, Germany and France. None of them can really compete with PW, RR and GE in this space. Yet, Turkey can do it in a few years.

If we step back from modern aeroengine and just focus on the "easier task" of developing 5th generation aircraft. If Turkey is capable of developing a 5th generation jet, then how come none of the countries it reached out to is interested in joining it?

This is not just a shot at Turkey. Korea is attempting to do the same. It even managed to sign a deal with Indonesia https://www.defensenews.com/global/...jet-partnership-with-indonesia-falling-apart/. And now Indonesia has basically given up on the project when it invested $10 billion on Rafale/F-15ID over the space of a week. If it's so easy to develop a 4.5 or 5th fighter jet and engine, why do all these countries with money continue to go back to purchasing the latest iteration of Western 4th generation aircraft?

This is really hard and it takes many years of heavy investment. Don't underestimate how much progress China has made to get to where it is now.
 

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