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PAF New Batch J-10 C Spotted

Horse_Rider

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Yeah man, Lavi got totally nothing to do with China, those are Vikings standing next to the Lavi😂

Lavi itself was a cross between Mirage and the F-16. Basically they took the Mirage characteristics due to it's high speed, great AoA, and agility AND IAF's experience with flying it at that time, and married it with the F-16's advance avionics / flight controls / mission computers and weapons. Since the WWII, not one country outside of the US has created 100% indigenous designs. That's just the reality. The French were inspired by Mig's delta wings! So again, outside of the US, everyone crisscrossed their fighter jet programs somehow.

If everyone's ok and the issue of Jewish vs. Muslim world is settled, we can debate on the topic, i.e. the J-10. Thank you.
 

Beny Karachun

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1. It is uncertain that Israel developed Lavi.

2. As I said. China's aviation industry began in 1911. It was earlier than the founding of Israel. We can assume that. The Feng Ru aircraft made by China in 1911 is more advanced than anything in the Middle East. Western Asia. South Asia. Southeast Asia. Latin America. Africa. so sorry that Israel did not exist at that time.

3, I'm not sure. How many mistakes did israel lavi experience. But I'm sure it has nothing to do with China.

There is no need to wear others' medals on yourself.
What do you mean uncertain that Israel developed the Lavi? It was a huge project employing tens of thousands of Israelis.

It's okay, you had a plane in 1911, we overtook you in the 80s.

Yeah, the mistakes had nothing to do with China, they were strictly budget related. China benefited from its cancellation and Israel provided the backbone for most of China's modern aviation industry.

The Python 3 that we sold you is the backbone of your air to air missile industry.

The EL/M 2053 Doppler radar we sold you was the backbone of your modern radar industry.

Yeah, there's no need to wear others medal on yourself, so just admit that China bought the plans for the Lavi and implemented it in their J10

Lavi itself was a cross between Mirage and the F-16. Basically they took the Mirage characteristics due to it's high speed, great AoA, and agility AND IAF's experience with flying it at that time, and married it with the F-16's advance avionics / flight controls / mission computers and weapons. Since the WWII, not one country outside of the US has created 100% indigenous designs. That's just the reality. The French were inspired by Mig's delta wings! So again, outside of the US, everyone crisscrossed their fighter jet programs somehow.

If everyone's ok and the issue of Jewish vs. Muslim world is settled, we can debate on the topic, i.e. the J-10. Thank you.
Lavi had its own design, Israel developed the avionics for it, the fly-by-wire system, the radar and basically everything besides the engine.
 

Beny Karachun

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dont be too insecure man.
accept that other air forces can beat IAF too.
dismissing an event because it snot favorable doesn't make it a fake story.

it wont make you any less. the records of your forces speak for themselves. but its not an absolute. even the Americans don't claim that. just avoid dick measuring in every thread.,
if you feel ignored then go to some Indian forum they will suck you dry happily. just tell them you are Israeli and you hate Pakistan.
Pakistanis flew with Arab insignia, there is no way for Israeli pilots to confirm whether they were Pakistanis or not, Pakistanis exploit that and claim 0 Pakistanis were shot down by Israel, and exploit the fact Israel can't debunk their baseless claims of shooting down a bunch of Israeli aircraft.

I'm not saying it's impossible to shoot down Israeli aircraft, after all over 150 Israeli aircraft were shot down throughout the years, however most of them were shot down by SAMs.

And the Arab airforces your Pakistani pilots flew in also claimed they shot down 3 times more Israeli aircraft than they did in reality so add that to our doubt.

Anyways, you guys have not provided any proof besides some pilot uniform of a captain named Lutz that doesn't even appear in the Israeli memorial of the KIA database.
 

serenity

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Lavi certainly influenced J-10. The Lavi program was completely unfinished but the unfinished program discoveries along that path was probably sold to China to recover some investment losses by Israel due to program cancellation. China's own J-9 program was also using the path of delta winged canard.

Lavi's advanced flight control systems was what I guess the main benefit China got from buying the program (assuming so). But at the same time it cannot be said Lavi = J-10. They are different weights, designed for different engine, different lengths and control surface positions and shapes are themselves different too despite both being delta wing canards which are the improvements to the Mirage 2000 essentially of fixing the sustained turn rate of pure delta aircraft designs from the mid 20th century to 1980s.

There is no doubt J-10 got some benefits from Israeli Lavi program. Possibly in the field of verifying China's own works on flight control systems for advanced designs of which canard fighters were back in the 1980s and 1990s.
 

Beny Karachun

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Lavi certainly influenced J-10. The Lavi program was completely unfinished but the unfinished program discoveries along that path was probably sold to China to recover some investment losses by Israel due to program cancellation. China's own J-9 program was also using the path of delta winged canard.

Lavi's advanced flight control systems was what I guess the main benefit China got from buying the program (assuming so). But at the same time it cannot be said Lavi = J-10. They are different weights, designed for different engine, different lengths and control surface positions and shapes are themselves different too despite both being delta wing canards which are the improvements to the Mirage 2000 essentially of fixing the sustained turn rate of pure delta aircraft designs from the mid 20th century to 1980s.

There is no doubt J-10 got some benefits from Israeli Lavi program. Possibly in the field of verifying China's own works on flight control systems for advanced designs of which canard fighters were back in the 1980s and 1990s.
Exactly, thank you.
 

Beny Karachun

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loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool, typical typical.
Read about the 1967 French embargo on Israel.

Israel basically stole the Mirage V design and created the Kfir, but that had nothing to do with the Lavi.

Give me one French made or designed part on the Lavi besides the cannon and I will admit I was wrong.
 

serenity

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Israel wanted a Mirage of their own so they had a program of Kfir to do that. I think South Africa and another country also created their own Mirage like delta wing fighter. Well then with Mirage, does that mean they have copied the American F-106 fighter which the Mirage is seemingly based on (not really).

The canard is the next evolution and improvement on the delta wing fighter. But this is the late 20th century of developments. Dassault had their Rafale, Eurofighter consortium had their Typhoon, China had their J-9 project (which eventually developed the J-10), Sweden had their Gripen, Israel had their Lavi, and now India has their MK2 project for Tejas to add canards.

Whatever you guys want to be talking about, in the 1980s to 1990s, China wanted some verification on their own advanced flight controls for back then was China's most ambitious fighter program. Israeli assistance in FBW was hinted by many Chinese sources. How much those assistance were is uncertain. China had their own FBW programs where tragic loss of engineers in an accident set one program back because the aircraft they were on suffered an accident. Israeli and Russian experts may have just been some consultants to a few programs and both were leveraged against each other to determine how genuine their consultations are. In any case, lessons were purchased, learned and mastered. The early J-9 and J-10 programs were China's first foray into advanced 4th generation flight control systems governing extremely complicated new designs.
 

Beny Karachun

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Israel wanted a Mirage of their own so they had a program of Kfir to do that. I think South Africa and another country also created their own Mirage like delta wing fighter. Well then with Mirage, does that mean they have copied the American F-106 fighter which the Mirage is seemingly based on (not really).
Not exactly, basically Israel had a lot of expertise with the Mirage 3, so it led to Israel to request Dassault to develop the Mirage V, that would be more suited to the Israeli military. Israel ordered 50 Mirage Vs but after the 1967 war France issued an embargo on Israel.

The production of the Mirage Vs was done in 1968 but because of the embargo they were not delivered to Israel and the money wasn't returned either. As a result Israel ordered its spies to steal the plans of the aircraft, and Israel reverse engineered it and produced an unlicensed copy of the Mirage V with its own parts.
 

Bleek

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If the rumours are true of procuring close to 100+ J-10Cs, is it economically feasible to open a production line in Pakistan? It could be beneficial as this is how Turkey started out with F-16s.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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If the rumours are true of procuring close to 100+ J-10Cs, is it economically feasible to open a production line in Pakistan? It could be beneficial as this is how Turkey started out with F-16s.
Not really. Realistically, we won't do much in the process besides assembly. The final assembly line would drive up the overhead cost. If we have that kind of money, it'd be wiser to put it towards additional J-10CEs or JF-17 Block-3/Bs.
 

serenity

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Well a few observations that we assume to be true and carry certain insights.

1. No J-10s have been seen outside CAC production facilities in months.

2. Guizhou Aircraft promotion material once indicated J-10 production will shift from CAC to GAC while CAC presumably focuses on making J-20s (now estimated to be upwards of 80 per year BEFORE new facilities are even accounted). This means in future, J-20 production should easily be more than 100 per year just from one production facility.

3. GAC has not produced any J-10s shown outside their facilities and PAF's J-10s have come from CAC.

4. PAF allegedly has bought more J-10 than the initial order of 36.

5. PLAAF is embarking on newer generations of fighters and platforms. Taking resources away from buying more 4.5 gen fighters.

6. SAC can build more than 60 J-16 plus a few dozen J-15 per year but current estimates put it at those numbers. They may be involved with 6th gen like CAC or in competition. Certainly SAC has UCAV programs too that are different from the several flying wing UCAVs that are either in service or flying prototypes that have lost out in competition with those that are not disclosed (won competition and used for service).

What do these suggest?

1. China considers J-10s something it is growing out of. Its usefulness is limited by size, payload, range. But it is far more affordable than a 4.5 gen equivalent option of J-16. Still the J-16 can fight much further away whereas J-10 flying those missions require much more planning with tankers support. J-10 is therefore a defensive regional fighter that must be placed nearby potential conflict zones. This is of course not a matter for PAF since the relative size of the airspace that require guarding for PAF is suitable for J-10.

2. With China's 6th gen platforms progressing (also to meet the threat of US inducting 6th gens in those timeframes), more resources are required in that direction. Buying more J-10 just doesn't make much sense. A similar level of sensor technology and payloads can be done by larger UCAVs for cheaper than making a J-10 and training and supporting a pilot. We have seen at least three different types of flying wing larger UCAVs from China that are at least flying even if two of those three are supposedly the ones that lost procurement competition or have not been involved in competition (not true reason surely since branch of AVIC wouldn't do such a thing for no reason therefore only reason for show is either leak of in service UCAVs captured by citizens when it flew by or less sensitive due to not being selected for service).

3. China needs long range fighters and heavy ones to carry the equipment and sensors necessary for longer range engagements and directing various types of drones. J-10 is a good supporting regional light weight fighter but in this role it is limited.

4. Pakistan allegedly wants to buy many more dozens of J-10.

5. Where would Pakistan get these if CAC is no longer producing them? Is there a hope that China has transferred J-10 manufacturing and line to Pakistan entirely? If so, where would Pakistan have possibly gotten the money for not just that but also setting it all up. Would China allow it and trust it since it has roughly 500 J-10s in service and will not be retiring them until late 2030s at the earliest.

I think Pakistan is just buying the 36. The rest is either intentional misleading talk or other sort of deal was agreed by both nations. J-10 while less important than J-16 strategically, it is still such a fighter for PLAAF that if details and information get into Indian or American hands, it does present as security issue even if slighter than J-16 details. Therefore production transfer is less believable. I think China genuinely feels 500 J-10s is enough and resources for more 5th gens and newer platforms are more important. GAC will make it in future (or now) for newer customers as CAC hands over production to GAC. Pakistan being the first customer means the first few batches were made before in CAC and working with GAC for future batches perhaps? Since it's produced in a different facility and China may have stopped inducting J-10s earlier this year, it is simply how these things aligned which make it appear PAF J-10s are coming from the ether. The first batches were made by CAC a while ago and newer ones may be from GAC.
 

MastanKhan

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Well a few observations that we assume to be true and carry certain insights.

1. No J-10s have been seen outside CAC production facilities in months.

2. Guizhou Aircraft promotion material once indicated J-10 production will shift from CAC to GAC while CAC presumably focuses on making J-20s (now estimated to be upwards of 80 per year BEFORE new facilities are even accounted). This means in future, J-20 production should easily be more than 100 per year just from one production facility.

3. GAC has not produced any J-10s shown outside their facilities and PAF's J-10s have come from CAC.

4. PAF allegedly has bought more J-10 than the initial order of 36.

5. PLAAF is embarking on newer generations of fighters and platforms. Taking resources away from buying more 4.5 gen fighters.

6. SAC can build more than 60 J-16 plus a few dozen J-15 per year but current estimates put it at those numbers. They may be involved with 6th gen like CAC or in competition. Certainly SAC has UCAV programs too that are different from the several flying wing UCAVs that are either in service or flying prototypes that have lost out in competition with those that are not disclosed (won competition and used for service).

What do these suggest?

1. China considers J-10s something it is growing out of. Its usefulness is limited by size, payload, range. But it is far more affordable than a 4.5 gen equivalent option of J-16. Still the J-16 can fight much further away whereas J-10 flying those missions require much more planning with tankers support. J-10 is therefore a defensive regional fighter that must be placed nearby potential conflict zones. This is of course not a matter for PAF since the relative size of the airspace that require guarding for PAF is suitable for J-10.

2. With China's 6th gen platforms progressing (also to meet the threat of US inducting 6th gens in those timeframes), more resources are required in that direction. Buying more J-10 just doesn't make much sense. A similar level of sensor technology and payloads can be done by larger UCAVs for cheaper than making a J-10 and training and supporting a pilot. We have seen at least three different types of flying wing larger UCAVs from China that are at least flying even if two of those three are supposedly the ones that lost procurement competition or have not been involved in competition (not true reason surely since branch of AVIC wouldn't do such a thing for no reason therefore only reason for show is either leak of in service UCAVs captured by citizens when it flew by or less sensitive due to not being selected for service).

3. China needs long range fighters and heavy ones to carry the equipment and sensors necessary for longer range engagements and directing various types of drones. J-10 is a good supporting regional light weight fighter but in this role it is limited.

4. Pakistan allegedly wants to buy many more dozens of J-10.

5. Where would Pakistan get these if CAC is no longer producing them? Is there a hope that China has transferred J-10 manufacturing and line to Pakistan entirely? If so, where would Pakistan have possibly gotten the money for not just that but also setting it all up. Would China allow it and trust it since it has roughly 500 J-10s in service and will not be retiring them until late 2030s at the earliest.

I think Pakistan is just buying the 36. The rest is either intentional misleading talk or other sort of deal was agreed by both nations. J-10 while less important than J-16 strategically, it is still such a fighter for PLAAF that if details and information get into Indian or American hands, it does present as security issue even if slighter than J-16 details. Therefore production transfer is less believable. I think China genuinely feels 500 J-10s is enough and resources for more 5th gens and newer platforms are more important. GAC will make it in future (or now) for newer customers as CAC hands over production to GAC. Pakistan being the first customer means the first few batches were made before in CAC and working with GAC for future batches perhaps? Since it's produced in a different facility and China may have stopped inducting J-10s earlier this year, it is simply how these things aligned which make it appear PAF J-10s are coming from the ether. The first batches were made by CAC a while ago and newer ones may be from GAC.
Hi,

Paf's target is around 6 sqdrn's of the J10-C's---.
 

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