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PAF New Batch J-10 C Spotted

LeGenD

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Bro, The F-35's payload is only (2,600 kg) for internal weapons.

If it has to carry weapons externally then its premium feature of stealth gets compromised.

But nevertheless, aircraft is great no doubt in it. Coupled with all the data-exchange, networking, EW etc. However, the US can upgrade or degrade its capabilities just using the software means you really don't want this bird until you have absolute trust on USA. In today's age when I can even see my house in Pakistan via my smart phone and move around the cameras. I can only imagine what data US could possibly gather, track, monitor and see or what kind of remote access they could have on each of those data driven / networked pieces.

I know that.

My point is that if you want to use it like a 4th generation fighter then it is designed to deliver results in this approach as well. It will do a better job on many counts in fact.

Yes.
And the argument saying that the 2015 tested F35 wasn't with the last FBW refinement is false : during the fine tune phase of a fighter, the aerodynamic characteristics are freezed from the beginning.
First preserial F35 flew in 2006. It don't take 9 years to end the aero flight testing. And LM is all but a newbie in this field.
A 2015' F35 doesn't fly worst than a 2022 or a 2030 one.

F-35 was in "development and testing" phase back in 2015. The objective of trials in "development and testing" phase is to validate operational performance parameters and get a handle on potential problems and limitations - this insight is important to develop the product further and improve its performance in the process. Dogfight trials in "development and testing" phase do not prove anything.

Skeptics needed a story to critic F-35 on the other hand and they got one. They rather proved that common sense is not so common.

F-35 could be put through its paces in terms of maneuverability at earliest in 2017:

IMG_0698-1-768x591.jpg


F-35 achieved full warfighting capability at Block 3F configuration in 2018.

I told you catch up with times, right?

You really need to.

The helmet is non perfectly operationnal.
It was said just 2 or 3 years ago that the data fusion was not running.
How are the over heat problems?

All the goodies seemed very well on paper (the speciality of LM : showing powerpoint. They won with 2% margin in Netherlands against a real Rafale with a paper plane. A supercruise paper plane never materialized).
-A powerfull radar
-A powerfull full sector optronic
-A powerfull communication node
-A star wars Helmet

But are all these items running perfectly together? The answer today is NO. And it may be than final answer because when they debugged one software Pb, another one is created because they decided from the beginning to built a complete weapon system instead of moving step by step : air to air, then light air to ground, than air to ship, then .... The weapon system software is too big, built by too many differents teams in a too short time....


It is the LM propaganda.
Don't forget that F35 is stealthy in X band only (the air to air radar wave lenght), never in low band radar (maybe possible only for big bomber as B2) or against multistatism radar.
And F35 is a hot bird : it isn't supercruise because it is shaped as a sugar piece despite a 12 tons dry engine ! So it has to use it's engine in a high throttle so it is hot. Why do you think J-10 and J-20 have an electro optical system?

2 to 3 years ago.... Facepalm. Why do you bring up "development and testing" phase problems in your arguments? WE look at things at the stage of Block 3F and beyond.

There were complaints about the so-called green glow glitch in low light conditions but it is resolved.

These helmets have proven to be quite resilient. The F-35 has now logged over 400,000 flight hours to date and our 2,000-plus HMDs custom fit and delivered to date have held up well. The HMD system was designed to be operated and maintained in the most austere conditions our warfighters may be operating within. With this in mind, the HMD was designed with seven-line replaceable units (LRUs), that can be serviced or replaced in the field as necessary.


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I have not checked Netherlands rating scheme. But I can tell you this much: rating can be subjectively assigned to each performance parameter. The customer has the freedom to create a rating scheme according to localized operational requirements.

There is no such thing as "perfection." There is always room for further development and improvements. Why do you think Rafale F4R standard is under development? Something wrong with Rafale F3R standard?

F-35 is in fact a multinational project. This is why different teams were involved in developing its hardware and software. There can be demerits of this approach which you seem to stress upon, but you are also stuck in the past in your claims.

F-35 is globally operational and being put through its paces in operationally challenging conditions around the world. Many units were involved in combat operations as well. The hardware and software systems are being stressed and operationally validated. Complaints are being taken seriously and sorted out in time. Pilots are getting a handle on how this incredibly complex machine works and will develop tactics in time. Israeli have developed some tactics already.

You need to be realistic in your expectations. It is very easy for you to complain about F-35 from a distance but what has France to show in comparison? Until or less France develops a true 5th generation fighter, you will not understand how expensive and difficult this undertaking is to make sure that it ticks all the boxes that conform to 5th generation fighter standards.

You will find the physics part very frustrating in particular when you will be attempting to develop an airframe that should be optimized for stealth (and maneuverability). This isn't Harry Potter Magic, son.

Turkey is developing one in the present, and they won't have a combat-ready machine before 2030. This is assuming that everything proceeds smoothly as per the plan. Do the math.

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F-35 is stealthy in a range of frequency bands from L to X. Further considerations are classified and/or not discussed in public domain.

I posted something of relevance in a previous post:


The aircraft can be detected (assuming a sophisticated IMAD setup), but the aircraft is designed and well-equipped to delay the inevitable and frustrate attempts to track it in real time and develop a Fire Solution for it, to buy sufficient time for the pilot to deliver knockout blows instead.

This discussion should stop now.

This thread is about J-10C.
 

Cookie Monster

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I'm a mechanical engineer, had work in Dassault Aviation, is aware of what a weapon system is.
And you, apart to be a pak blind supporter ?
For someone who claims to be a "mechanical engineer" u sure can't tell the difference between "opinions" and "evidence based proof" as demonstrated in ur useless post linking an Indian blog post.

Before u accuse others of being blind supporters...u should look at urself. It is clear to everyone how u r a blind supporter of the Rafale jet just bcuz u r French. As if all the other jets pale in comparison...and u try to "prove" that point by using propaganda Indian article that lacks any concrete evidence...

...but hey according to u..u r a mechanical engineer and that somehow makes it okay for u to claim whatever u want without providing any technical information to back up those claims...at most u provide some opinion pieces...and we should all take u at ur word bcuz u r a "mechanical engineer". Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet...ur posts reflect u as more of a Rafale fanboy than a mechanical engineer. Engineers and scientists use evidence to support their reasoning.
 
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Beny Karachun

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The main, and probably sole, asset of F35 is stealth. But Stealth will vanished.
Multistatic radar on grond or airborne (included in a late Rafale F4 upgrade or, at worst, in F5), low band radars (see how the chinese destroyer are fitted with) and IR more and more potent seekers (F35 is a hot bird. So hot it needed (or need to day ?) to open its door to refresh) are and will be more and more challenging for such a non agile target as F35.
At the end the F35 users will have a non very agile, costly to operate, non long ranged, non supercuise, non very evolutive birds.

All the futur birds are built around stealth solutions, because it's now easyier than 20 years ago, the aero dynamic solutions well known, and against third country it may be usefull (but less and less against real opponents, as China).
But it isn't. F-35 is the combination of situational awareness, which is actually the most important aspect on a plane, along with its stealth.

Probably the best feature about the plane is the full coverage DAS. F-35 is years ahead of any European plane , and in fact years ahead of any plane, in terms of situational awareness due to the DAS.
 

BON PLAN

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For someone who claims to be a "mechanical engineer" u sure can't tell the difference between "opinions" and "evidence based proof" as demonstrated in ur useless post linking an Indian blog post.

Before u accuse others of being blind supporters...u should look at urself. It is clear to everyone how u r a blind supporter of the Rafale jet just bcuz u r French. As if all the other jets pale in comparison...and u try to "prove" that point by using propaganda Indian article that lacks any concrete evidence...

...but hey according to u..u r a mechanical engineer and that somehow makes it okay for u to claim whatever u want without providing any technical information to back up those claims...at most u provide some opinion pieces...and we should all take u at ur word bcuz u r a "mechanical engineer". Anyone can claim to be anything on the internet...ur posts reflect u as more of a Rafale fanboy than a mechanical engineer. Engineers and scientists use evidence to support their reasoning.
There is no evidence based proof here. If it was the case you go to jail immediatly for spying.
Try to persuade who you want that a bird made by a country of farmers forty years ago is best than those study and built by specialists.
The chinese weapons are not best than the russian ones, and we now all can see a real test bench in Ukraine (Irak was a first round, but some explained us it was export low potent russian weapons. No more the case here).

But it isn't. F-35 is the combination of situational awareness, which is actually the most important aspect on a plane, along with its stealth.

Probably the best feature about the plane is the full coverage DAS. F-35 is years ahead of any European plane , and in fact years ahead of any plane, in terms of situational awareness due to the DAS.
NICE SITUATIONAL AWARENESS ! This bird is full of bugs.
"The fighter plane received an error message on the system and made a controlled emergency landing in Bodø just before 2 p.m.," he told the newspaper, adding that the F-35 landed without drama.
 

Beny Karachun

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There is no evidence based proof here. If it was the case you go to jail immediatly for spying.
Try to persuade who you want that a bird made by a country of farmers forty years ago is best than those study and built by specialists.
The chinese weapons are not best than the russian ones, and we now all can see a real test bench in Ukraine (Irak was a first round, but some explained us it was export low potent russian weapons. No more the case here).


NICE SITUATIONAL AWARENESS ! This bird is full of bugs.
"The fighter plane received an error message on the system and made a controlled emergency landing in Bodø just before 2 p.m.," he told the newspaper, adding that the F-35 landed without drama.
Cope, how is the landing gear failing going to help you when it blows up your plane from 100km without ever being detected?
 

CivilianSupremacy

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ever heard of LPI?

No. But, I have just checked it a bit - low Probability of Intercept. So set of technologies that "lowers" the probability of potential intercept ? Tbh, I have never heard that F-35s or any aircraft can become completely invisible and that too even after locking into other aircraft and remain undetected until it blows other aircraft ? That's way too good to be real.

The stealth, the locking mechanism and all those parameters are never absolute.
 

Cookie Monster

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There is no evidence based proof here. If it was the case you go to jail immediatly for spying.
Try to persuade who you want that a bird made by a country of farmers forty years ago is best than those study and built by specialists.
The chinese weapons are not best than the russian ones, and we now all can see a real test bench in Ukraine (Irak was a first round, but some explained us it was export low potent russian weapons. No more the case here.
Can't provide evidence based proof bcuz "you go to jail for spying" and yet so confidently claiming something better than the other...
...and that whole argument rests on the flimsy argument that since France has been producing jets longer than China has...and therefore
...French made jet > Chinese made jet

Yet in the same post goes on to bash the US made F35 conveniently ignoring his own flimsy argument of "longer history of producing defense weapons". In case u didn't know...US has been producing world class weapons since before Germany rolled through France in WWII.
When u start contradicting ur own argument...it means u have no real argument...and what u r presenting as an argument is nothing but a biased statement.
 

BON PLAN

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Cope, how is the landing gear failing going to help you when it blows up your plane from 100km without ever being detected?
Give me a "evidence based proof" (as said by @Cookie Monster ) of that.

ever heard of LPI?
a LPI is not a NPI (No probably of Interception .... )
LPI is mainly used to avoid to be jammed. But as it is an emission, in a known wave band lengh, it can be intercept (but less easily jammed)

The stealth, the locking mechanism and all those parameters are never absolute.
Agree. And stealth is, inthe F35 or J-20 case, mainly in front sector, and only (or mainly) in X band.
 

BON PLAN

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Can't provide evidence based proof bcuz "you go to jail for spying" and yet so confidently claiming something better than the other...
...and that whole argument rests on the flimsy argument that since France has been producing jets longer than China has...and therefore
...French made jet > Chinese made jet

Yet in the same post goes on to bash the US made F35 conveniently ignoring his own flimsy argument of "longer history of producing defense weapons". In case u didn't know...US has been producing world class weapons since before Germany rolled through France in WWII.
When u start contradicting ur own argument...it means u have no real argument...and what u r presenting as an argument is nothing but a biased statement.
Chinese products are low quality ones. You can see evidence based proof on Ali express, Amazon, and on all the open air market of the world.

About US products, I only found F35 as overhyped. F16, F15 were and remain marvellous planes. F22 was and is THE best air superiority aircraft of the world.

Germany rolled through France just 21 years after being rolled by France.... And this Germany killed 6 millions jews and 20 millions russian people. If you like this Germeny, it's not my choice.
 

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