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BON PLAN

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Both US and Israel have extensively used F-35 in combat missions around the world since 2019.

It comes down to competency of the operator as well.



As if problems were not addressed before? This problem will be FIXED as well.

How many jet fighters can reliably supercruise? Only F-22A Raptor can.

F-35A variant is incredibly maneuverable for a legitimately stealthy jet fighter.

Removal of Turkey from F-35 program followed by COVID-19 pandemic compounded F-35 supply chain problems. This problem will take time to address.
F35 is so late now. Despite huge dollars expenses the weapon system software stall because too huge, made by too many programming teams, and not evolved step by step. When they solved one problem, another one is creating... it's end less.

How many fighters can supercruise? EF2000 can. Rafale can (with one belly tanks and 4 AAM). at least.

F35A incredibly agile? a dual seat F16 with 2 tanks (not a clean config) over match it ! And F16 is THE reference.
 

Cookie Monster

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just have a look : https://hindustannewshub.com/world-...-pakistan-in-dilemma-enmity-with-india-heavy/

"The reason for this is that China’s weapons are still not as reliable as those of America. This is the reason why Pakistan’s dependence on American F-16 fighter jets continues."

"Experts say that the Chinese weapons received by Pakistan can be of poor quality. This is the reason why Pakistan’s outdated F-16 and other weapons of western countries are still most effective against India. Recently, there was news that 4 Zulfiqar frigates made in China of Pakistan Navy were equipped with useless electronics. Not only this, his engine was also seriously lacking and the weapons were also not working properly. This was the reason that Pakistan Navy was forced to run them even after poor quality."



This is a dream ? You are proud to be a pak citizen, but it doesn't change the fact that your weaponery is outdated.

I wish you a very nice day.
I feel sorry for u...
...for a person to be a member of a defense forum and not be able to distinguish between news and what I would call "opinion pieces" based on no real evidence(AKA "fake news").
...it's just sad.
 

Trango Towers

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Both US and Israel have extensively used F-35 in combat missions around the world since 2019.

It comes down to competency of the operator as well.



As if problems were not addressed before? This problem will be FIXED as well.

How many jet fighters can reliably supercruise? Only F-22A Raptor can.

F-35A variant is incredibly maneuverable for a legitimately stealthy jet fighter.

Removal of Turkey from F-35 program followed by COVID-19 pandemic compounded F-35 supply chain problems. This problem will take time to address.
Combat missions against people who have no aircraft. Its easy then isn't it. Both these countries always fight those who cannot fight back
 

CivilianSupremacy

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I feel sorry for u...
...for a person to be a member of a defense forum and not be able to distinguish between news and what I would call "opinion pieces" based on no real evidence(AKA "fake news").
...it's just sad.
True that!
I mean who on their right mind will share an indian website link and that too about a Pakistani or Chinese defense product. In a split second you can see hatred & propaganda dripping out of those indian pieces.

and he made a laughing emoji when I sent him actually the credible website link and that too from a western author.

Here's the link again:
Why China's jets are surpassing Russia's Top Fighters:

F35 is so late now. Despite huge dollars expenses the weapon system software stall because too huge, made by too many programming teams, and not evolved step by step. When they solved one problem, another one is creating... it's end less.

How many fighters can supercruise? EF2000 can. Rafale can (with one belly tanks and 4 AAM). at least.

F35A incredibly agile? a dual seat F16 with 2 tanks (not a clean config) over match it ! And F16 is THE reference.

But On this one, I am with you to some extent. the main feature of F-35s is stealth. It compromises on rest. Rafales, EFs will beat it in payloads, supercruise or any other parameter. New more powerful & anti-stealth radars will be made in due course and that will further degrade F-35s value. But for now, F-35 is a great hegemony tool for USA. The aircraft is fully programmable with software, so hence I suspect, some of features can be controlled even remotely. This aircraft can never be imagined to be used against US interests anyways. Good for US and its partners. Europeans needs to make their own 5th gen solutions if they want full autonomy and want to control their own defense in future.
 

Trango Towers

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True that!
I mean who on their right mind will share an indian website link and that too about a Pakistani or Chinese defense product. In a split second you can see hatred & propaganda dripping out of those indian pieces.

and he made a laughing emoji when I sent him actually the credible website link and that too from a western author.

Here's the link again:
Why China's jets are surpassing Russia's Top Fighters:



But On this one, I am with you to some extent. the main feature of F-35s is stealth. It compromises on rest. Rafales, EFs will beat it in payloads, supercruise or any other parameter. New more powerful & anti-stealth radars will be made in due course and that will further degrade F-35s value. But for now, F-35 is a great hegemony tool for USA. The aircraft is fully programmable with software, so hence I suspect, some of features can be controlled even remotely. This aircraft can never be imagined to be used against US interests anyways. Good for US and its partners. Europeans needs to make their own 5th gen solutions if they want full autonomy and want to control their own defense in future.
Europeans are very aware that America has engineered the war in Ukraine. Additionally the fact major defence contracts have been forced upon nations like Germany to the tune pf 100 billion plus shows that America is only intent of its own hegemony and subservience of Europe. The Europeans are and will move away from major American defence purchases. This is good for Europe
 

BON PLAN

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I feel sorry for u...
...for a person to be a member of a defense forum and not be able to distinguish between news and what I would call "opinion pieces" based on no real evidence(AKA "fake news").
...it's just sad.
I'm a mechanical engineer, had work in Dassault Aviation, is aware of what a weapon system is.
And you, apart to be a pak blind supporter ?
 

BON PLAN

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But On this one, I am with you to some extent. the main feature of F-35s is stealth. It compromises on rest. Rafales, EFs will beat it in payloads, supercruise or any other parameter. New more powerful & anti-stealth radars will be made in due course and that will further degrade F-35s value. But for now, F-35 is a great hegemony tool for USA. The aircraft is fully programmable with software, so hence I suspect, some of features can be controlled even remotely. This aircraft can never be imagined to be used against US interests anyways. Good for US and its partners. Europeans needs to make their own 5th gen solutions if they want full autonomy and want to control their own defense in future.
The main, and probably sole, asset of F35 is stealth. But Stealth will vanished.
Multistatic radar on grond or airborne (included in a late Rafale F4 upgrade or, at worst, in F5), low band radars (see how the chinese destroyer are fitted with) and IR more and more potent seekers (F35 is a hot bird. So hot it needed (or need to day ?) to open its door to refresh) are and will be more and more challenging for such a non agile target as F35.
At the end the F35 users will have a non very agile, costly to operate, non long ranged, non supercuise, non very evolutive birds.

All the futur birds are built around stealth solutions, because it's now easyier than 20 years ago, the aero dynamic solutions well known, and against third country it may be usefull (but less and less against real opponents, as China).
 

serenity

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Your thinking is very much similar to Russians where you believe stealthiness to a certain degree such as F-35, J-20, F-22 is pointless and lower observable is enough but mainly a fighter's edge over another is in its flight performance. Flight performance is both important for BVR and even more so for WVR. I think these days F-22 and J-20 at least can fly exceptionally well while also gaining that upper tier stealthiness. F-35 not quite so much as these. The area of electronics missiles and stealth I think still outclasses the flight performance focused philosophy. Best is to have it all. I believe J-20 tries to do that while F-22 has been upgraded there are limits. USA has planned to retire F-22s now. If they kept the F-22 running and ordered many hundreds they would have multiple blocks rather than upgrades that are very restricted. F-22 could have been the ultimate fighter with 2020s computing and avionics for latest blocks if they kept the production line. F-35 truly does not perform as well as F-22.
 

LeGenD

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F35 is so late now. Despite huge dollars expenses the weapon system software stall because too huge, made by too many programming teams, and not evolved step by step. When they solved one problem, another one is creating... it's end less.

How many fighters can supercruise? EF2000 can. Rafale can (with one belly tanks and 4 AAM). at least.

F35A incredibly agile? a dual seat F16 with 2 tanks (not a clean config) over match it ! And F16 is THE reference.

It cannot be that bad because the jet fighter works. Every modern jet fighter has problems but F-35 is over-scrutinized for its problems in Western discourses.

Complaint # 1929292 in 2035 = F-35 cannot reach Mars.

Food for thought. Do you see the Chinese talking about problems of J-20? The Chinese are slowly but surely addressing problems of J-20 but they are not talking about them in Public because they believe in the optics of deterrence. Western people are cry babies of the highest order on the other hand.

----

This is a trend to brag and exaggerate stats for marketing purposes. Supercruise capacity comes from a careful combination of very powerful engine(s) and very clean aerodynamics - this theme is central to design of the aircraft. Stealthy configuration is Best Fit in this case.

----

Are you referring to dogfight trials conducted in 2015? You need to catch up with times then.

Combat missions against people who have no aircraft. Its easy then isn't it. Both these countries always fight those who cannot fight back

Every country would like to fight an enemy on its terms. Being fair or unfair does not matters, bro.
Suicide bombing is unislamic but some Islamic groups have adopted this tactic to kill others in current times.

My point was that F-35 are not being kept in hangers but deployment and used in combat situations just like other jet fighters. This was in response to OP who grossly under-appreciates F-35 in his talks.

But On this one, I am with you to some extent. the main feature of F-35s is stealth. It compromises on rest. Rafales, EFs will beat it in payloads, supercruise or any other parameter. New more powerful & anti-stealth radars will be made in due course and that will further degrade F-35s value. But for now, F-35 is a great hegemony tool for USA. The aircraft is fully programmable with software, so hence I suspect, some of features can be controlled even remotely. This aircraft can never be imagined to be used against US interests anyways. Good for US and its partners. Europeans needs to make their own 5th gen solutions if they want full autonomy and want to control their own defense in future.

See above for "supercruise" part.

F-35A has 11 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 22,000 lbs.
Rafale F3R has 14 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 21,000 lbs.
Eurofighter Tranche 5 has 13 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 20,000 lbs.
F-18E/F has 11 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 17,750 lbs.
F-16 Block 70/72 has 11 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 17,200 lbs.
J-10C has 11 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 13,230 lbs.

F-35 also feature [vastly] superior sensor package and electronic warfare capabilities.

Factor in stealthy airframe now.

Sorry but F-35 is well-equipped to fight battles of the future - much more-so than others in the medium weight class.

Your thinking is very much similar to Russians where you believe stealthiness to a certain degree such as F-35, J-20, F-22 is pointless and lower observable is enough but mainly a fighter's edge over another is in its flight performance. Flight performance is both important for BVR and even more so for WVR. I think these days F-22 and J-20 at least can fly exceptionally well while also gaining that upper tier stealthiness. F-35 not quite so much as these. The area of electronics missiles and stealth I think still outclasses the flight performance focused philosophy. Best is to have it all. I believe J-20 tries to do that while F-22 has been upgraded there are limits. USA has planned to retire F-22s now. If they kept the F-22 running and ordered many hundreds they would have multiple blocks rather than upgrades that are very restricted. F-22 could have been the ultimate fighter with 2020s computing and avionics for latest blocks if they kept the production line. F-35 truly does not perform as well as F-22.

F-35 is VLO compliant design. Lowest stated RCS figure is 0.001 in accessible sources but lower RCS figure is hinted in one very informative source.

J-20 is VLO compliant design? Lowest stated RCS figure is 0.08 in accessible sources.

J-20 is most stealthy in the heavyweight class after F-22A though. This is a better way to hype it in this aspect.
 

Primus

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F35 is so late now. Despite huge dollars expenses the weapon system software stall because too huge, made by too many programming teams, and not evolved step by step. When they solved one problem, another one is creating... it's end less.

How many fighters can supercruise? EF2000 can. Rafale can (with one belly tanks and 4 AAM). at least.

F35A incredibly agile? a dual seat F16 with 2 tanks (not a clean config) over match it ! And F16 is THE reference.
In an air to Air fight between the F35 and the Rafale, the F35 will see the Rafale first and it will fire on the Rafale first without the Rafale knowing where the F35 is
 

Trango Towers

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In an air to Air fight between the F35 and the Rafale, the F35 will see the Rafale first and it will fire on the Rafale first without the Rafale knowing where the F35 is
True and when the missile is in the air ...Rafael will light up its counter measures and if it survives then its game on. In a WVR dogfight. My money is on the Rafael
 

CivilianSupremacy

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See above for "supercruise" part.

F-35A has 11 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 22,000 lbs.
Rafale F3R has 14 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 21,000 lbs.
Eurofighter Tranche 5 has 13 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 20,000 lbs.
F-18E/F has 11 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 17,750 lbs.
F-16 Block 70/72 has 11 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 17,200 lbs.
J-10C has 11 hardpoints for payload, and its total payload capacity is 13,230 lbs.

F-35 also feature [vastly] superior sensor package and electronic warfare capabilities.

Factor in stealthy airframe now.

Sorry but F-35 is well-equipped to fight battles of the future - much more-so than others in the medium weight class.

Bro, The F-35's payload is only (2,600 kg) for internal weapons.

If it has to carry weapons externally then its premium feature of stealth gets compromised.

But nevertheless, aircraft is great no doubt in it. Coupled with all the data-exchange, networking, EW etc. However, the US can upgrade or degrade its capabilities just using the software means you really don't want this bird until you have absolute trust on USA. In today's age when I can even see my house in Pakistan via my smart phone and move around the cameras. I can only imagine what data US could possibly gather, track, monitor and see or what kind of remote access they could have on each of those data driven / networked pieces.
 

BON PLAN

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Are you referring to dogfight trials conducted in 2015? You need to catch up with times then.
Yes.
And the argument saying that the 2015 tested F35 wasn't with the last FBW refinement is false : during the fine tune phase of a fighter, the aerodynamic characteristics are freezed from the beginning.
First preserial F35 flew in 2006. It don't take 9 years to end the aero flight testing. And LM is all but a newbie in this field.
A 2015' F35 doesn't fly worst than a 2022 or a 2030 one.
 

BON PLAN

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F-35 also feature [vastly] superior sensor package and electronic warfare capabilities.

Factor in stealthy airframe now.

Sorry but F-35 is well-equipped to fight battles of the future - much more-so than others in the medium weight class.
The helmet is non perfectly operationnal.
It was said just 2 or 3 years ago that the data fusion was not running.
How are the over heat problems?

All the goodies seemed very well on paper (the speciality of LM : showing powerpoint. They won with 2% margin in Netherlands against a real Rafale with a paper plane. A supercruise paper plane never materialized).
-A powerfull radar
-A powerfull full sector optronic
-A powerfull communication node
-A star wars Helmet

But are all these items running perfectly together? The answer today is NO. And it may be than final answer because when they debugged one software Pb, another one is created because they decided from the beginning to built a complete weapon system instead of moving step by step : air to air, then light air to ground, than air to ship, then .... The weapon system software is too big, built by too many differents teams in a too short time....

In an air to Air fight between the F35 and the Rafale, the F35 will see the Rafale first and it will fire on the Rafale first without the Rafale knowing where the F35 is
It is the LM propaganda.
Don't forget that F35 is stealthy in X band only (the air to air radar wave lenght), never in low band radar (maybe possible only for big bomber as B2) or against multistatism radar.
And F35 is a hot bird : it isn't supercruise because it is shaped as a sugar piece despite a 12 tons dry engine ! So it has to use it's engine in a high throttle so it is hot. Why do you think J-10 and J-20 have an electro optical system?
 

Primus

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It is the LM propaganda.
Don't forget that F35 is stealthy in X band only (the air to air radar wave lenght), never in low band radar (maybe possible only for big bomber as B2) or against multistatism radar.
And F35 is a hot bird : it isn't supercruise because it is shaped as a sugar piece despite a 12 tons dry engine ! So it has to use it's engine in a high throttle so it is hot. Why do you think J-10 and J-20 have an electro optical system?
Please re read what i wrote
 

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