What's new

PAF J-10C News, Updates and Discussion

Deltadart

FULL MEMBER
May 22, 2016
1,356
0
2,359
Country
United States
Location
United States
why can't J-10B not be upgraded to C? What's your proof for that?

I can't control PAF if they want to make dumb decisions, but F-16V wouldn't do well against J-10C.

If I was PAF, I'd ask China if I can get some used J-10A with avionics upgrade for low cost. A lot of them are headed to early retirement.
Now getting used J10As is an interesting idea. Can the seniors, experts here shed some light on the feasibility of this idea? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
 

Horse_Rider

BANNED
Nov 24, 2022
551
1
510
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Stop trying to refer to J-10CE as block 4. Its a weak attempt to stroke the ego. Not fooling anyone and achieves no logistical benefits. They are completely different aircraft. No need to conflate the 2.

As for Pakistani FGFA, i dont see any unique or independent project coming to fruition. ALL signs point to PAF jumping into J-35 or a TFX

What's up with "ego" comments? When you debate, you debate with logic.

The logic behind referring a POTENTIAL JFT block 4 is to refer to Pakistan's internal fighter jet umbrella program. Just like the fact that an F-16 can have a delta wing variant. It's up to the PAF's leadership to call it what they'd like.

In a fighter jet program, one version of a jet ("end product") can be an entirely new jet than the prior version, like how F-16 up to block 40 was really one plane but upgraded, then block 52, then block 70, yet used single engine engineering and borrowed tried and tested airframe. Thus, what could've been new, was kept under the F-16 umbrella. Same goes for F-15C/D/E, Sukhoi's, etc, etc.

If any Manufacturing / People / Process / Technology is being re-used, usually the "umbrella" program's name is kept.

On 5th gen fighter, the idea behind standardizing J-10CE's license manufacturing and airframe was also to gain ability to toy with it for 5th gen stealth design. The Chinese can build the airframe for Pakistan but at some point having an existing assembly of the J-10CP, the machine's can be re-tooled for 5th gen production using best of the both worlds (TFX / J-31 tech / weapons ). What I fear is Pakistan going down this path of procuring whatever it can get and at the end not able to sustain 5th gen platforms properly as they are complicated and very expensive. There is plenty of time to do it right and J-10CP would be a good start if it can be internalized with weapons from TFX / J-31 both integrated locally.

The Chinese are discontinuing the J-10C (or reducing future production capacity significantly as they need 5th gen and heavier jets). So it's a great opportunity for Pakistan to co-manufacture / assemble locally for much cheaper as economies of scale has already been achieved with this platform. The JFT airframe has it's limitations so it makes sense to stop after block III and standardize J-10CP for future assembly and later ToT with focus on going limited ToT / assembly of a stealth design internally in the future. Pakistan will need this industry locally for it's future and to save $$ as the country's dealing with the worst financial crises.
 
Last edited:

Tank131

FULL MEMBER
Oct 7, 2015
1,232
5
2,697
Country
United States
Location
United States
What's up with "ego" comments? When you debate, you debate with logic.

The logic behind referring a POTENTIAL JFT block 4 is to refer to Pakistan's internal fighter jet umbrella program. Just like the fact that an F-16 can have a delta wing variant. It's up to the PAF's leadership to call it what they'd like.

In a fighter jet program, one version of a jet ("end product") can be an entirely new jet than the prior version, like how F-16 up to block 40 was really one plane but upgraded, then block 52, then block 70, yet used single engine engineering and borrowed tried and tested airframe. Thus, what could've been new, was kept under the F-16 umbrella. Same goes for F-15C/D/E, Sukhoi's, etc, etc.

If any Manufacturing / People / Process / Technology is being re-used, usually the "umbrella" program's name is kept.

On 5th gen fighter, the idea behind standardizing J-10CE's license manufacturing and airframe was also to gain ability to toy with it for 5th gen stealth design. The Chinese can build the airframe for Pakistan but at some point having an existing assembly of the J-10CP, the machine's can be re-tooled for 5th gen production using best of the both worlds (TFX / J-31 tech / weapons ). What I fear is Pakistan going down this path of procuring whatever it can get and at the end not able to sustain 5th gen platforms properly as they are complicated and very expensive. There is plenty of time to do it right and J-10CP would be a good start if it can be internalized with weapons from TFX / J-31 both integrated locally.

The Chinese are discontinuing the J-10C (or reducing future production capacity significantly as they need 5th gen and heavier jets). So it's a great opportunity for Pakistan to co-manufacture / assemble locally for much cheaper as economies of scale has already been achieved with this platform. The JFT airframe has it's limitations so it makes sense to stop after block III and standardize J-10CP for future assembly and later ToT with focus on going limited ToT / assembly of a stealth design internally in the future. Pakistan will need this industry locally for it's future and to save $$ as the country's dealing with the worst financial crises.
The reason you would change the name has nothing to do with references to Pakistani manufacturers. It has zero bearing on the production lines or logistical supply chain. There is zero reasons that exist why you would need to change the name of an aircraft that (by that time) will have been operating under the name of J-10 in PAF for years. that will have any affect on its production and the logistics tied to it. The J-10CE, EVEN of built in Pakistan, will never be an internal project, and there is no need to refer to it as such. So it is irrational and illogical and making such a change is just pandering to the ego nothing more. This is not to say that J-10CE Line COULD not be set up, or even have the actual JFT line retooled as needed for J-10. BUT that is a separate discussion, though as i said seems uneconomical for just 70-100 fighters. If you are going to retool the line, it should be for a future project that Pakistan has some financial and R&D stake in (FGFA Like J-35 or TFX depending on what they decide).

As for the delta wing F-16 variant of the F-16, you are referring to the F-16XL which was only ever a tech demonstrator. It was offered to USAF as a future strike fighter but was never serious contender. It was a mildly enlarged fuselage of the standard F-16 and replaced the dual delta with a cranked single delta. It was STILL and F-16, and NOT an entirely different aircraft. Same thing goes with the enlargement of gripen and even the redesign of F-18. These are modified and enlarged versions following a similar structure and design architecture. HAD J-10 never been inducted and then PAF acquired production rights and stopped JF-17 then you MAY have had an argument, but as such it is unnecessary and nonsensical to change its name.

As for converting J-10CE into a stealth design, i will respond here to your previous post as well... J-10 shares less than nothing in design with J-20 outside the fact that they are delta canards. But that is suggesting J-20 is developed from J-10 in that regard is no different from saying J-20 is derived from Gripen, rafale and typhoon. Converting a non-stealth design will require redesign capability that Pakistan does not possess and is harder than designing a steath fighter from scratch. This is not a case of reuse, repurpose and recycle. Stealth is something that needs to go i to the design scheme from the initial conceptualization. If that were not the case, you dont think the US would have put a design scheme for a stealthy F-16 or a fully stealth F-15 instead of F-35 or F-22? Instead, they went went new fighters, while still having iterative upgrades to the legacy fighters culminating in F-15EX. They even developed F-15SE with stealthy LO features includong more curved lines, internal bays and canted tail, but guess what, its still not a 5th gen foghter. And you want Pakistan to take a fighter, one whose rights you do NOT EVEN POSSESS AND ARE UNLIKELY TO GET, and convert it house, and get CAC AND POSSIBLY TAI to help you do it? Its illogical. Again you have been (reportedly) offered joint venture on J-35 AND TFX. If you dont want PAF to buy off the shelf then they should join one of these programs, invest in this as a partner, and put a production line. It will share the cost of a new fighter with new structural and electrical architecture and will be better served in the long run.

I have heard nothing on production of J-10 halting, but even if it is true, that should tell you all you need to know about the route you are proposing. Had this been 2005 or even 2010, then your in house production has merit, but younare proposing tying Pakistani Defense industrial future to a variant that is at the end of its generation, and whose generations future replacements are in already hitting the battlefields across the world... Then hoping that somehow Turkey (who would never be allowed within 100ft of J-10s blueprints) or China would exhaust resources helping you convert it into a FGFA (which even US didnt do) leaving you with (at best) a 4.8gen fighter
 

LeGenD

MODERATOR
Aug 28, 2006
13,827
132
17,549
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
my contact (and I won't divulge further background here) says that USAF E-3C has trouble locking on to PLAAF J-10Cs. It has really good emission control and EW suite.

He also said that even with F-16V, its bus speed, subsystem integration and EW suite makes it way less competitive than J-10C.

Your contact is so enlightening...

track, whatever you want to call it. I don't quite recall his exact phrasing here, but basically you don't want to use E-3C to find J-10C.

wrt F-16V, remember that J-10A to J-10B went through a huge redesign of interior in order to accommodate a new avionics architecture, data bus, heat management and MMI that serves as a testbed for J-20. So in terms of amount of data it can provide to pilot, I'm not surprised it impressed upon PAF pilots. F-16V on the other hand didn't go through an interior redesign from C/D.

Just like there wasn't a need for interior redesign between J-10B to J-10C.

I can't control PAF if they want to make dumb decisions, but F-16V wouldn't do well against J-10C.

I pointed out that J-10C is more advanced than F-16 C/D in a thread back in March without checking any magazine.

I am also pointing out that F-16V is a massive leap from F-16C/D.

Your claim is bold.

Hi another way to gauge it easily is chinese way as china can field J10cs against Taiwan f16v & I’m sure Chinese might have already access it or will get there soon if not now as most of the time they keep on pushing their awacs and multiple fighters across the line towards Taiwan
thank you

Chinese cannot have access to them on the ground.

PLAAF is way too big for Taiwan Air Force to handle, however. It will be a bloodbath but PLAAF will prevail.
 

MastanKhan

PDF VETERAN
Dec 26, 2005
20,762
167
57,579
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Your contact is so enlightening...



Just like there wasn't a need for interior redesign between J-10B to J-10C.



I pointed out that J-10C is more advanced than F-16 C/D in a thread back in March without checking any magazine.

I am also pointing out that F-16V is a massive leap from F-16C/D.

Your claim is bold.



Chinese cannot have access to them on the ground.

PLAAF is way too big for Taiwan Air Force to handle, however. It will be a bloodbath but PLAAF will prevail.
Hi,

Wouldn't that be considered a natural progression over time---?
 

Trango Towers

ELITE MEMBER
Oct 29, 2016
20,458
-18
24,506
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
Next stop J-35 InshAllah...
Wow a University is responsible for the manufacture. Shows how far behind the western universities are. I studied at Cranfield institute of technology. One of the best for engineering in the UK and even on masters in Aicraft design we had no manufacturing exposure. Design was limited to paper and very theoretical.
Here in China the student will graduate with hands on state of the art experience. Can u imagine the interview?
 

Horse_Rider

BANNED
Nov 24, 2022
551
1
510
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
The reason you would change the name has nothing to do with references to Pakistani manufacturers. It has zero bearing on the production lines or logistical supply chain. There is zero reasons that exist why you would need to change the name of an aircraft that (by that time) will have been operating under the name of J-10 in PAF for years. that will have any affect on its production and the logistics tied to it. The J-10CE, EVEN of built in Pakistan, will never be an internal project, and there is no need to refer to it as such. So it is irrational and illogical and making such a change is just pandering to the ego nothing more. This is not to say that J-10CE Line COULD not be set up, or even have the actual JFT line retooled as needed for J-10. BUT that is a separate discussion, though as i said seems uneconomical for just 70-100 fighters. If you are going to retool the line, it should be for a future project that Pakistan has some financial and R&D stake in (FGFA Like J-35 or TFX depending on what they decide).

As for the delta wing F-16 variant of the F-16, you are referring to the F-16XL which was only ever a tech demonstrator. It was offered to USAF as a future strike fighter but was never serious contender. It was a mildly enlarged fuselage of the standard F-16 and replaced the dual delta with a cranked single delta. It was STILL and F-16, and NOT an entirely different aircraft. Same thing goes with the enlargement of gripen and even the redesign of F-18. These are modified and enlarged versions following a similar structure and design architecture. HAD J-10 never been inducted and then PAF acquired production rights and stopped JF-17 then you MAY have had an argument, but as such it is unnecessary and nonsensical to change its name.

As for converting J-10CE into a stealth design, i will respond here to your previous post as well... J-10 shares less than nothing in design with J-20 outside the fact that they are delta canards. But that is suggesting J-20 is developed from J-10 in that regard is no different from saying J-20 is derived from Gripen, rafale and typhoon. Converting a non-stealth design will require redesign capability that Pakistan does not possess and is harder than designing a steath fighter from scratch. This is not a case of reuse, repurpose and recycle. Stealth is something that needs to go i to the design scheme from the initial conceptualization. If that were not the case, you dont think the US would have put a design scheme for a stealthy F-16 or a fully stealth F-15 instead of F-35 or F-22? Instead, they went went new fighters, while still having iterative upgrades to the legacy fighters culminating in F-15EX. They even developed F-15SE with stealthy LO features includong more curved lines, internal bays and canted tail, but guess what, its still not a 5th gen foghter. And you want Pakistan to take a fighter, one whose rights you do NOT EVEN POSSESS AND ARE UNLIKELY TO GET, and convert it house, and get CAC AND POSSIBLY TAI to help you do it? Its illogical. Again you have been (reportedly) offered joint venture on J-35 AND TFX. If you dont want PAF to buy off the shelf then they should join one of these programs, invest in this as a partner, and put a production line. It will share the cost of a new fighter with new structural and electrical architecture and will be better served in the long run.

I have heard nothing on production of J-10 halting, but even if it is true, that should tell you all you need to know about the route you are proposing. Had this been 2005 or even 2010, then your in house production has merit, but younare proposing tying Pakistani Defense industrial future to a variant that is at the end of its generation, and whose generations future replacements are in already hitting the battlefields across the world... Then hoping that somehow Turkey (who would never be allowed within 100ft of J-10s blueprints) or China would exhaust resources helping you convert it into a FGFA (which even US didnt do) leaving you with (at best) a 4.8gen fighter

:lol: You spent so much time on having some personal issue with the a proposed name and that for discussion only.

Now on F-16 XL, whether it was a demonstrator or not is besides the point, if there was interest from USAF or a foreign partner, LM would've offered it in large numbers. It's also becoming clear on your actual understanding on fighter jets. Can the US turn F-16 into a stealth optimized platform? ABSOLUTELY YES, but will that meet it's requirements? NO! Any airframe can be "re-done" for stealth optimization. But it's not "Stealth" per say like the F-22 or the F-35 (even the -35 is not fully stealth). Stealth is not just the airframe. There is a lot that goes into it. I'll stop here now.

It's a known fact that the Chinese pilots find it easier to transition from J-10 to J-20 than flankers. Because J-10's re-use J-20's tech. Only canards aren't just one similarity. On this forum there have been discussions on how J-20's DNA (tech) goes into J-10 and then some even to the JFT. So there is reusability all across between J-10 and the JFT.

Lastly, the J-10CP assembly in Pakistan, the only real point I got from your post was the "economies of scale production" and you are right. Pakistan will only buy this if it has a greater stake in it and that could be export profit sharing or an additional version of the jet for the future to produce in enough numbers to make it much worthy.

China has potentially produced about 500 of J-10 variants in various versions. The cost to outsource the manufacturing line won't be astronomical. Heck, I'd even say it may be on par with the JFT at this point as for the JFT, the entire cost was dumped on Pakistan but J-10CP is a far superior plane.

On J-10 stopping or reducing production runs, yes, it's been going on since earlier this year. CAC is also selling (or has sold already) J-10's production line to a Tier III aircraft company and there will be very few of these coming out in the future as China's requirements and focus now is to crank out enough J-20's (double the capacity) to equate perceived threat numbers of F-35's / F-22 and upcoming Japanese / Korean stealth fighters. China like the US, is simply focusing on 5th gen, then 6th and then Robotics.

Wow a University is responsible for the manufacture. Shows how far behind the western universities are. I studied at Cranfield institute of technology. One of the best for engineering in the UK and even on masters in Aicraft design we had no manufacturing exposure. Design was limited to paper and very theoretical.
Here in China the student will graduate with hands on state of the art experience. Can u imagine the interview?

That's nothing new. Engineering and Business are two different sides of any business. The engineering teams are responsible for creating better products and newer tech. The business is responsible for buildout and sales, how best to manufacture a product and how to be most profitable. Engineering teaches design and now with CAD, to Prototypes, to simulators, there is a lot more than what was taught in aeronautical engineering just ten years ago. While in business schools like the London Schools of Economics, Harvard, etc, you get to learn manufacturing processes, setup, quality (six sigma, etc) and cost / profit management. Of course, engineering teams are used throughout the process.
 
Last edited:

ghazi52

PDF THINK TANK: ANALYST
Mar 21, 2007
90,067
98
145,872
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
,..,.,
1669988896506.png



Earlier in March, a new shape took to the skies over Pakistan. Six J-10Cs, bearing the tail numbers 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, and 106, entered Pakistan via PURPA (waypoint) on the northeastern border with China. Precise and lethal equipped with canards, delta wing design, a soaring 4.5 generation Omni-role, all-weather-capable jet – PAF’s ‘Vigorous Dragon’ had arrived to safeguard the country’s future for years to come. The scenes were reminiscent of 1968, when six French Mirage fighters, tail numbers ranging from 101 to 106 entered Pakistani airspace. Leading the formation was Wg Cdr MM Alam. Sqn Ldr Hakimullah, Sqn Ldr Farooq F Khan, Sqn Ldr Farooq Umar, Flt Lt Arif Manzoor, and Flt Lt Akhtar Rao, flew at his wings. Fast forward to 2022. Leading the formation of Dragons was OC No 15 Sqn, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shehzada. Wg Cdr Bilal Raza, Sqn Ldr Jibran Rashid, Sqn Ldr Hasan Anees, Sqn Ldr Zeeshan Muhammad, Sqn Ldr Ali Qasim, flew on the wings of their leader. The formation is on its way to Kamra from Chengdu. Back at PAF Base Minhas, the air is rife with energy. A sense of excitement and pride runs through all, gathered at the occasion to welcome the Dragons. All eyes are glued towards the beginning of the runway to catch the first glance of Dragons about to appear for landing. Assembled on the tarmac of the base is the senior leadership of PAF under its honorable leader, ACM Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, the CAS PAF. Finally, the historic moment had arrived. First Dragon bearing Serial No 101, flown by Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim appeared on the scene. The six J-10Cs touched down at PAF Base Minhas at Kamra. Senior air officials observing from the tarmac breathed a sigh of relief and applauded the perfect landings. As the aircraft appeared on the tarmac, a water canon salute was presented to the incoming Dragons, a tradition followed to welcome the arrival of new aircraft at a facility. Before Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim could disembark and line up his crew for presentation, he found Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, climbing the ladder, to greet him. “Does the plane live up to our expectations?” asked the smiling Air Chief. “I’ll have to admit, it is one of the best fighter jets in the world. With all the work we had been doing in China over the months, improving our tactics in the way we operate the platform, I can safely say that the capability that we have brought back with us is truly phenomenal, far better than what we expected, sir,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim responded. It’s a significant investment, but in defense, nothing comes cheap. The J-10C is a cutting-edge platform, moving the PAF into a new ball game in terms of operational readiness, in terms of the nature of the platform the PAF was acquiring. When the “Second to None” team spoke with ground crews and the pilots, it was fair to say that the J-10C was a step in the right direction, something that the PAF had been working towards for a long time. It was just fantastic to see them arrive, having traveled all the way from China. It was a thing of beauty. Air Chief Marshal Zaheer Ahmed Baber Sidhu, Chief of Air Staff, Pakistan Air Force maintained that the induction of the Dragons highlighted the fact that the investments the air force made in capabilities and in capacity was significant. “The fact that we will be flying the J-10C makes a statement that PAF, has significant defense capability and is willing to do its part in the world, and is willing to meet its obligations,” the Air Chief said during the arrival ceremony of the jets at PAF Base Minhas, where the enthusiasm was contagious.
July-2022_Page_21-1024x663.jpg


Taming the Dragon

To get trained on J-10Cs and later ferry the Dragons from China, a team of professionals including both pilots and ground crew was shortlisted. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim Shahzada, who has flown F-16s and Mirages was given the honor of leading the contingent to China in October 2021. His team boasted skilled F-16, JF-17, and Mirage pilots, familiar with Beyond Visual Range (BVR), and had AI exposure. Following strict covid protocols, the team traveled in three groups over a span of three weeks. Gp Capt Azkaar from Project Dragon handled logistics, overseeing departure formalities, flight cancellations due to covid, and preparing backups for dropouts.

Upon landing in China, on 20 October, the crews were quarantined in the city of arrival for 14 days. On the second last day of the quarantine, Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim tested positive. The rest were cleared to depart to Chengdu, where they were quarantined for another two weeks. Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim spent, in all, 72 days in quarantine before he could join his teammates who had already started their training. The training was focused specifically on operating the J-10C. “In Chengdu, we were basically starting to learn how to fly this technologically advanced jet, and then we went through all the different mission sets and basic skills,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim said.

Most of the pilot’s instructions came on the ground, in the classrooms followed by pilots practicing the aircraft’s most unique capabilities in an advanced simulator. The language was a major barrier, which the PAF crew overcame with the help of an interpreter. After classes, PAF pilots used to sit down to reconcile information on their own. No time to enjoy and see China. They were trained directly by the original equipment manufacturers (OEM), and by Chinese counterparts with perhaps a few more flying hours under their belts. A few days of theoretical sessions were followed by quizzes. During training, it was crucial that pilots got comfortable executing J-10C maneuvers.

Hence, simulator training started in detail, learning avionics, switchology, feel of controls was extremely realistic, engine handling, and the response of controls – allowing to recreate emergencies and procedures in the aircraft that really simulate what it would be like to fly in a real J-10C. Each PAF pilot had to complete the prescribed number of sorties in the simulator as a minimum syllabus requirement, only then they could be allowed in the new jet. Anything they could do in an aircraft they could in the simulator – max rate turns, vertical climbs weapon employment techniques, etc. “A lot of people underestimate the amount of work it takes to become a pilot, and a fighter pilot specifically. A one-hour flight, even in a simulator might mean up to several additional hours of the briefing, gearing up, flight inspections, and debriefings, not to mention the hours spent studying/preparing for each mission,” said Wg Cdr Bilal Raza emphasizes the importance of training.

Finally, the day arrived when the crew had the opportunity to have the first look at the aircraft. The PAF crew were in awe of the jet when they first set their eyes on the Dragon. The first thing they noticed was its huge size, slightly different shape, and looks as compared to weapon systems they had already flown. “It was a fantastic feeling and we were in love with the bird at first sight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza said. “It’s one of the world’s most advanced fighter aircraft and we’re lucky to be a part of that program in the PAF, and to be at the leading edge of that is a real privilege and real delight,” Wg Cdr Bilal Raza added, enthusiastic to feel how it would handle in the air, and wanting to experience its agility and maneuverability. At Chengdu, it was the job of Chinese instructors to teach PAF pilots how to fly the J-10C from scratch.

The Chinese were nervous, at first, fearing the guest crew would not be able to hack it. “This wasn’t like college where we could get through with minimum passing grades. We had to attain almost 100% to qualify in each and every phase, there were no let-ups. We were expected to catch on to material we were taught really quickly, the learning curve had definitely been pretty steep,” Wg Cdr Imtiaz Rahim recalled. The instructors worked overtime, and gave up a week of Chinese New Year holidays to train PAF pilots – no compromises to achieve minimum standards.


 

New Recruit

Nov 20, 2022
94
0
71
Country
Canada
Location
United States
What happened to Jay Yuff Savandeen Jadeedtareen Laraka Taiyyara Made in China Used In Pakistan
I thought Pakistan would replace all aircrafts in PAF inventory with JF17
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 6, Members: 4, Guests: 2)


Top Bottom