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The Eagle

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@NA71 and others to whom it may concern..... Do not share those click baiting YouTube videos mostly repeating the same thing which is discussed over the forum already. It's like spamming the forum. Not here please.

Regards,
 

untitled

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Let's build up the hype with this blast from the past. JF-17 makes it's first entry on 23rd march 2007

The former Air Chief Mujahid Anwar was a Group Captain back then

 
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aliyusuf

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As fortune would have the Thunder well endowed with such a long-ranged FCR, can anyone hazard a guesstimate as to what would be the max detection range of the J-10C's radar? With more TR Modules, the latter should have a longer range, shouldn't it?
 

Path-Finder

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20220123_110548.jpg
 

Meliodas

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Dear Members, Please use Social Media power to persuade PTV authorities to arrange/prepare for high quality (near High Definition ) coverage of upcoming March 23 Pakistan Day parade ...it would be Pakistan's 75th Pakistan day parade that will also host dignitaries such as Crown Prince MBS and OIC foreign ministers.

The other main feature will be the Fly past of J10C and probably the first official appearance of JF17B3.

Media Coverage with TV cams of 1960s would ruin the event .....
PTV had a target of making it's national broadcast completly digital by providing HDTV boxes n/w by Jan 26/27, but as far as I know not a single piece has moved because of low funds and unreasonable deadlines. Once it's done I hope all will be able to enjoy hd PTV and it's parade / tournament coverages.
 

tphuang

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As fortune would have the Thunder well endowed with such a long-ranged FCR, can anyone hazard a guesstimate as to what would be the max detection range of the J-10C's radar? With more TR Modules, the latter should have a longer range, shouldn't it?

The exact range really isn't that important. It's great for exporters to promote themselves and for fanboys to boast online, but it's really not that important. Keep in mind that Indian fanboys for years have been spreading online how great Su-30MKI's BARS radar is and how it can search 400 km all. And then, Russian exporters have been boasting about Su-35's Irbis radar having 350 km range vs 3m^2 target. But here is an analysis on why this is significantly overstated.

Without knowing the scenario that these numbers are achieved, it's impossible to tell how capable the radar system is.
‘Despite being marketed as 4++ gen, Su-35 has the least capable avionics suite among its competitors. It’s the only major 4th gen. aircraft without an AESA radar or any form of Sensor Fusion. The Irbis-E is marketed as having a 350 km range against 3 m^2 target while in reality that’s only in cued-search in a tiny FoV. What’s rarely stated is that in normal volume search that range shrinks down to 200 km.


‘More importantly, Su-35’s radar has a maximum targeting range of 250 km – even for a B-52 like target.

We also see this in Irbis-E’s flight test video where it allegedly detected a single target from 268 km but wasn’t able to get a track until 100 km – all the while having just a single target to track.

Btw, I have not independent verified claims from that link. My point is that exporter claims of a radar's range is meaningless without knowing how they arrived at that number. There is a reason why after China got Su-35, they just couldn't believe how behind the radar and avionics technology on there is compared to J-16. Of course, that has not stopped Indian fanboys online from claiming that their great MKI's radar is as good as J-16's radar. It takes some level of delusion to think Russian radar technology from 15 years ago is as good as China's radar technology from 6 years ago.

Of course, aside from just tracking range, it also matters how well a radar hides itself from RWR of opposing fighter jet. It also matters how well a radar counters EW signals the other side. Back when Rafale was still using PESA radar, they only advertised a detection range of 100 km. But that was against 1 m^2 targets. On top of that, Thales also claimed to have achieved LPI on their PESA radar, which is normally only possible on AESA radar. Nowadays, Rafale apparently have range of 200 km against 3 m^2 targets with its 800+ modules AESA radar. If we just go by range, it's half as good as BARS radar. Does anyone in their right mind think Rafale's radar is half as good as BARS?

But here are things to like about J-10C's radar vs both JF-17 and Rafale
1) There are more T/R modules which should theoretically allow for generation of more radar power, making it less susceptible to jamming, allow for greater tracking resolution and better ability in tracking multiple targets in the air and ground/sea.
2) It also has a larger radar aperture which (along with more T/R modules) theoretically allows radar beam to more accurately steered in a narrow beam to target area allowing for LPI by surrounding aircraft. Just imagine a wide beam emitting strong RF to the entire frontal FOV vs many smaller beams beaming at different targets. How much easier is it to pick up the former vs the latter?
3) Much greater thrust than JF-17, which will allow AESA radar to power EW suite to do stronger jamming.
4) Most likely GaN modules vs GaA modules on Rafale. Greater power in the former.

None of this says J-10C's radar and EW suite is better than Rafale's system. But it seems like they have managed to fit a larger equipment with more power and greater radar aperture on there than Rafale. It would be hard to know if what J-10C has is better for multi-target tracking or for EW warfare, but the potential is there. If we make the assumption that what's on the newly flown J-20S (developed in the past couple of years) is ahead of Rafale's RBE2-AA radar and EW suite (which was developed over 10 years ago using GaA T/R modules) in technology, then it should not surprise people if J-10C could adopt similar technology that will make it better than what Rafale has. There is just much faster improvement in the Chinese military industrial complex than European ones right now due to the much greater resources and investment. When PAF buys J-10C right now, it's buying present capability as well as future capability.

So when thinking about radar range, we should also think about what is its effective range vs Rafale or Sukhoi. What the range is against multiple targets? How hard it is for opposing aircraft to pick up your signals? How hard it is for opposing aircraft to jam/fool your radar? How well does your system present that information to the pilot? A lot of this won't be found out until you start training and find what works and what doesn't work. For example, when China first picked up Su-27, it realized very quickly that su-27's radar gives off its position really quickly and kept losing in training against J-7s. They learnt over time that they had to keep radar off until they get closer to the target.
 

IbnAbdullah

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Salaam

For example, when China first picked up Su-27, it realized very quickly that su-27's radar gives off its position really quickly and kept losing in training against J-7s. They learnt over time that they had to keep radar off until they get closer to the target.

Interesting post.

One question though, how would the pilot of su27 know if they are closer to the target if their radar is turned off? Thanks.
 

siegecrossbow

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Interesting post.

One question though, how would the pilot of su27 know if they are closer to the target if their radar is turned off? Thanks.

My guess would be either:

1) Use AWAC to provide intercept coordinates. But this was during the late 90s/early 2000s when China didn't have many AWACS, so maybe
2) Flanker's wingman opened its radar to scan for the J-7 and relayed the data to its partner or
3) The pilot used IRST to pick up heat signature. But those have very narrow FOV.
 

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