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PAF Air Refueling Capability

SQ8

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you will be amazed at the amount of wasteful expenditure and stupidity in any organization. The pakistani military is no exception.

i am not saying the Il-78 purchase is a stupid one. it definitely does not meet the initial test
Why not? What initial test is this?
 

wiseone2

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Why not? What initial test is this?
i have several problems
the il-78 work only with mirages and jf-17 not with the f-16 which are the most capable aircraft in the paf inventory

it is an extra aircraft to maintain in your inventory unless you decide to acquire Il-76 for other purposes - transport

given the fact the Il-78 has to be protected from the iaf it is operating hundreds of km from the border with india

acquiring four aircraft is not enough to refuel a squadron

Look at your maps more closely(i hope they are scaled) and get a compass and see where 300 kms gets you
delhi
 

Abingdonboy

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i have several problems
the il-78 work only with mirages and jf-17 not with the f-16 which are the most capable aircraft in the paf inventory

it is an extra aircraft to maintain in your inventory unless you decide to acquire Il-76 for other purposes - transport

given the fact the Il-78 has to be protected from the iaf it is operating hundreds of km from the border with india

acquiring four aircraft is not enough to refuel a squadron



delhi
The PAF's IL-78s can, in a few hours, have their cargo-hold tanks removed and be used to haul cargo so it is, to a degree, a MRTT and thus adds to the PAF's airlift capacity also.

I agree though, that that the PAF's most lethal fighter cannot be refuelled in the air remains quite a glaring gap and I always why the PAF hasn't' persued the IFR probe (Conformal Air Refueling Tanker/System ,CARTS)LM had devloped for the F-16:





Perhaps this wasn't made avaible for export beyond India? @Oscar @waz sirs any ideas ?
 

wiseone2

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The PAF's IL-78s can, in a few hours, have their cargo-hold tanks removed and be used to haul cargo so it is, to a degree, a MRTT and thus adds to the PAF's airlift capacity also.

I agree though, that that the PAF's most lethal fighter cannot be refuelled in the air remains quite a glaring gap and I always why the PAF hasn't' persued the IFR probe (Conformal Air Refueling Tanker/System ,CARTS)LM had devloped for the F-16:

Perhaps this wasn't made avaible for export beyond India? @Oscar @waz sirs any ideas ?
India has the Il-78 aerial tankers. I never thought of MRT variants the PAF ordered.
 

SQ8

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Perhaps this wasn't made avaible for export beyond India? @Oscar @waz sirs any ideas ?
Nothing of that sort. Quite simply the Block-52 is the only aircraft that would benefited from it and that is 18 aircraft with the added penalty of weight of the system. As such these aircraft are already capable of flying as deep as they are required to go.

The other F-16s are boom type refuelled and for that the PAF could only afford EDA KC-135s or A-310 MRTTs.. both became unavailable for one reason or the other.

i have several problems
the il-78 work only with mirages and jf-17 not with the f-16 which are the most capable aircraft in the paf inventory

it is an extra aircraft to maintain in your inventory unless you decide to acquire Il-76 for other purposes - transport

given the fact the Il-78 has to be protected from the iaf it is operating hundreds of km from the border with india

acquiring four aircraft is not enough to refuel a squadron



delhi
1.Capable, not most numerous. The other aircraft need the range extending as well and to assume that the Mirages with their rather unstated and unsaid upgrades are not capable strike platforms is folly in itself. Thankfully the IAF knows better.

2. If you actually knew anything about the Il-78 you would know that it only turns into a refueller when roll on/roll off tanks are put into its cargo bay...which otherwise has the same internal volume as the Il-76. Again, ask the IAF first.
 

SQ8

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it is one thing to do it in peacetime. it is another to do it in the fog of war



Mirage III is an old aircraft. It will be outclassed by modern aircraft - MiG-29, Mirage-2000, Su-30, Rafale and 5th generation aircraft. No amount of upgrades will change it.

Not all il-78 are MRTS. The IAF and PLAAF do not have the mrt variant. The PAF has the mrt variant.
Sure, if you are here for assuaging your ego.. you will find yourself kicked out very soon. I have no time for petty debates.
 

Abingdonboy

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Nothing of that sort. Quite simply the Block-52 is the only aircraft that would benefited from it and that is 18 aircraft with the added penalty of weight of the system. As such these aircraft are already capable of flying as deep as they are required to go.
Ah yes you are quite right that the utility of such a system would be very limited for the PAF who could only have the CARTS fitted on those Blk.52s as they have CFTs.

As an aside, I don't know how the marketing of this system would work given it was a UK/Israeli/US/Indian coloboration anyway.

The production model will be available in 2012 and HAL is expected to sell the product to other vendors even if the F-16 is not chosen for the MMRCA.

Lockheed Martin is responsible for overall system engineering, integration, aircraft modification, and project leadership; Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (India) is responsible for CARTS tank design and probe integration; Flight Refueling Limited (UK) is responsible for the telescoping fuel probe design and integration; and Israeli Aerospace Industries Limited (Israel) is responsible for technical consulting associated with the tank design.


The F-16 gets a Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS)
 

SQ8

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Ah yes you are quite right that the utility of such a system would be very limited for the PAF who could only have the CARTS fitted on those Blk.52s as they have CFTs.

As an aside, I don't know how the marketing of this system would work given it was a UK/Israeli/US/Indian coloboration anyway.

The production model will be available in 2012 and HAL is expected to sell the product to other vendors even if the F-16 is not chosen for the MMRCA.

Lockheed Martin is responsible for overall system engineering, integration, aircraft modification, and project leadership; Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (India) is responsible for CARTS tank design and probe integration; Flight Refueling Limited (UK) is responsible for the telescoping fuel probe design and integration; and Israeli Aerospace Industries Limited (Israel) is responsible for technical consulting associated with the tank design.


The F-16 gets a Conformal Aerial Refueling Tank System (CARTS)
The same way a lot of Indian products and designs ended up on the desks of various Pakistani R&D firms. You guys have a LOT.. and I mean a LOT more leaks than you think. And there are not moles but basic loopholes within the system. The need to get recognized for your R&D efforts is a double edged sword.
 

Basel

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you will be amazed at the amount of wasteful expenditure and stupidity in any organization. The pakistani military is no exception.

i am not saying the Il-78 purchase is a stupid one. it definitely does not meet the initial test
IL-78 purchase was a wise decision of PAF as they serve as MRTT aircraft not just as air refuelers
 

Penguin

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Gentlemen--

Lets talk some facts

AAR Capability in PAF is under mirage 5 and JF17 (Lets say 1 Sqn at Max)
F16 Cant be refuelled by PAF as they need "flying boom system" which are not with PAF.

Now pick the Map and PLOT where above SQNs are...this will give you Considerable Vectors...












Get PAF F16s some conformal fuel tanks! Shown here is the 'Conformal Air Refuelling Tank System' (CARTS). Aircraft and system tested with both KC-10 and Il-78. Some advantages:
a) more fuel capacity to begin with
b) second transfer mode
c) could allow for buddy-to-buddy refuelling using F16s only.

Can also work in podded form: the older Aerial Refuelling Tank


 
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IrbiS

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PAF is gonna need more tankers in future. If she buys dedicated ones then can have both boom and house systems on single platform thus effectively remedying the F-16 shortfall and can find them in the East with emerging Russian and Chinese platforms. On the other hand, PAF can get booms for current IL-78 fleet if she really needs it ( which it doesn't, at least for now ) but it would terminate much needed airlift capability which isn't good. So, PAF will buy more tankers or lifters when truly needed and made available politically and financially
 

Najam Khan

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PAF is gonna need more tankers in future. If she buys dedicated ones then can have both boom and house systems on single platform thus effectively remedying the F-16 shortfall and can find them in the East with emerging Russian and Chinese platforms. On the other hand, PAF can get booms for current IL-78 fleet if she really needs it ( which it doesn't, at least for now ) but it would terminate much needed airlift capability which isn't good. So, PAF will buy more tankers or lifters when truly needed and made available politically and financially
No we don't.
Here is the summary...
1- PAF don't have intra-regional doctrine neither we have strategic depth.
2- Tankers for us are handy in case of strike/longer patrols (which is need/situation based). Close proximity of FOBs and operational bases practically rule out the need of tankers for us.
3- Regarding F16s, we have them in numbers. For air-defence role their loiter time is already good. Buying dedicated refuelers for F16s just don't fit in the scope of PAF ops.
 

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