• Sunday, December 8, 2019

Open Debate | Ideal direction of Pak-Afghan relations.

Discussion in 'Strategic & Foreign Affairs' started by Horus, Jan 29, 2014.

  1. ibnarastoo

    ibnarastoo BANNED

    Messages:
    126
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2017
    Ratings:
    +0 / 37 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United States
    You may not be a friend of Pakistan if you oppose Afghanistan/Iran/Turkey and our allies (US/UK/EU/Russia). You may not be a friend of the Muslims if you oppose the Afghan Muslims. You may be playing into the hands of our neighbors to the East if you oppose the Afghan.

    For a little understanding :
    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/uniting-prospering-afg-pak-through-peace-understanding.480275/#
     
  2. Menace2Society

    Menace2Society BANNED

    Messages:
    6,715
    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Ratings:
    +10 / 9,991 / -9
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Afghanistan is the modern day barbarian horde. They are a plague. Most countries have banned them from entering. Pakistan let them roam free and look at the outcome.

    Iran is peaceful because it never allowed them in. India is peaceful because it never allowed them in. You see the correlation?

    I am a man of rationale, I don't buy Muslim bhai bhai nonsense. Afghanistan is most definitely 100% a hostile. Build big walls and keep them out. Hide their existence from the future generations and completely remove from society.

    Want to be industrialized, peaceful and developed? Then do this.

    Want to be ravaged by terrorism, poor and some more poor? Keep deluding yourself into thinking these people want to be friends.

    Friends don't kill your children in their classrooms. Disgusting evil country. Lakh lanat on them all.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  3. MultaniGuy

    MultaniGuy ELITE MEMBER

    Messages:
    9,213
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2017
    Ratings:
    +4 / 8,724 / -4
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Canada
    Afghanistan and Pakistan are brotherly nations. There is much in comon between the two nations.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  4. niaz

    niaz PDF THINK TANK: CONSULTANT

    Messages:
    4,715
    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2006
    Ratings:
    +179 / 9,534 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    It is not enough to say that Afghanistan & Pakistan are brotherly nations. History is full of brothers killing their brothers. Whatever the faults of Afghanistan & India, the fact remains that both the countries are our neighbours and we have to find a ‘Modus Operandi’ to learn to live like neighbours.

    We cannot shut the door for ever. The border is too porous and shutting Torkham & Chaman border crossing will not necessarily stop the suicide bombers but it definitely causes hardship to the people living on both sides of the border majority of whom are not involved in any act of terrorism.

    Here is an excellent article on this subject.

    Dealing with the Afghans
    [​IMG]

    Our shut-open-shut border policy towards Afghanistan needs a serious review. More than a review, it needs context, aim-identification and proper juxtaposition within our long-term strategic worldview.

    We ought to have some sense of where we are going with the present set of steps vis-a-vis Afghanistan, and whether, in the medium and long terms, these steps will be in alignment with how we want to see our ties shape up with this important yet troublesome state.

    That we had to do something when gangs from across the border attacked our cities and sent in terrorists who killed our precious women, children and men was pretty much a foregone conclusion. No less obvious was what needed to be done: we had to send a signal to Kabul that it had to somehow control these gangs or else be penalised.

    Closing the border was a people-centered punishment and knocking out hideouts was a state-centered action. Both combined did produce the result of getting Kabul to focus its attention on the fact that its territory was producing terrorism that was intolerable and for which our patience was running out.

    Also the new army chief, General Qamar Javed Bajwa, didn’t have to consult anyone and could order forces to pound potential and actual sanctuaries. The display of a quick response and the consistency of its use – despite protests, threats and diplomatic theatrics from Kabul – indicated that a new normal had been introduced in our equation with Afghanistan: the gloves will come off easily every time we suspect or have information about terrorists operating out of Afghanistan who strike inside our country. This policy also keeps the option of a hot pursuit on the table just to reinforce the message that the old ‘talk, talk and no action’ phase is over.

    However, having introduced this new element in our relationship with Afghanistan, we need to now consider how these strong-arm actions fit into the larger framework of our ties with a country whose internal happenings have a direct bearing on our core security goals. There is no embarrassment in admitting the fact that these steps towards Afghanistan – the use of force to convey our anger and anguish – have been taken in haste. They became inevitable after the wave of terror that had taken everybody in the country by surprise and had engendered fears that perhaps we could descend into the Middle East-like chaos. But now that these steps have been taken, they have to be squared with the needs of our long-term ties with Afghanistan.

    Clearly we don’t want a hostile, embittered Afghanistan whose government – regardless of how compromised and weak it may be – is able to sell to a willing public the idea that Pakistan is an enemy state. We also don’t want the dynamics of trade between the two countries to be so badly affected that the scope of it is reduced rather than enhanced. We certainly don’t want the population across immediate border towns – whose livelihood and economy depends crucially on the flexibility of to-and-fro movement – to become agitated and hostile.

    With these ‘don’ts’ in mind, it is only logical to suggest that restriction across the border – from legitimate to illegal crossings– must not be used as a favourite tool to express diplomatic or military displeasure. People-to-people hostility runs counter to the idea that this border needs to be kept calm and the population in its immediate vicinity must be reasonably assured that they won’t pick the cost of the dark deeds of terrorists. Of course, border crossings should be more tightly regulated. Border fencing is a great idea and must be followed up without any reservation or second thoughts. Indeed, in times of threats or heightened frustration – with Kabul’s insouciance towards our suffering and pain at the hands of terrorists – these crossings can be paced down. But to shut them down at the drop of a hat is a policy that does not serve any long-term purpose.

    Also, carrying out strikes across the border on sanctuaries will remain a policy of somewhat limited and diminishing gains as gangs operating from across could easily shift their bases inward or relocate to another position of advantage. Their existence – especially since it is bankrolled by India and some Western intelligence agencies apart from Kabul’s own intel apparatus – is not meant to be a stop-gap arrangement. It is a long-term plan to stir mischief in Pakistan and to stretch the army’s resources from east to west. So, in all probability, these groups will stay there – all the more because Kabul, by its own admission and by our own acknowledgement, continues to insist that it has no writ over these havens.

    This creates the policy challenge of making a demand on Kabul through punitive action that we know it cannot (or will not) fulfil. How do we enhance our capacity to stop these gangs from making it across the border and striking in the mainland? We cannot be lobbing off mortars and pretend that all of them are demolishing terrorists bases. We, therefore, need to seriously work on fixing our border by fencing it and also by building a strong and robust special border force – the foundation of which is already available in the shape of the Frontier Corps.

    The FC needs to be developed as a defence and sword arm of the nation for our border with Afghanistan. It is a motivated force with remarkable achievements under its belt in the first and most complex phase of Fata operations. If it wasn’t for its contributions, the vast stretches of Fata where we raise the national flag now would still have been out of our reach. It needs to be equipped, financed and its command structure must be adjusted to the new role.

    Equally important is the work on and with the tribes that straddle the border or are in close proximity to the border. History suggests that these tribes are as much a first line of defence for us as they are potential transmission belts of trouble that travels down the way the Kabul River flows. Some of these tribes – such as Salarzai in Bajaur – were bedrocks against mass-scale Taliban raids and paid a heavy price for standing for a terror-free country. We used them as tribal lashkars and then, at the first light of the dawn of Taliban defeat, abandoned them. This was pathetic. These tribes need to be engaged – not to start a new phase of lashkar raising but to build a common cause of monitoring, supervision and effective people-driven control of the border. Informal trade (let us not call it smuggling) will always allow the possibility of miscreants slipping in. But that in no way should stand in the path of building a human fence against organised raiders. This needs to be done quickly and with sincerity of purpose that goes beyond grabbing headlines and photo opportunities.

    But, in the end, all these measures will not be effective in dealing with the Afghanistan challenge if we do not activate the diplomatic front at all levels. Bombs and guns are instruments of violence from which lasting peace can only emerge if the opponent is completely vanquished. In situations where total victory isn’t possible, kinetic means become long-term nightmares.

    Pakistan stands to suffer the most from a breakdown of ties with Afghanistan. We have sent the right signals to Kabul and to the world through our border closure and strikes on sanctuaries. Now diplomatic channels need to be activated to arrest Afghanistan’s general drift towards chaos which can be evidenced by the Daesh attack on the Kabul military hospital. We need to take the lead on bilateral, trilateral, quadrilateral, and multilateral engagements to discuss and debate Afghanistan’s situation.

    We have wasted too much time waiting for the Taliban to arrive on the table and have reduced the vast spectrum of Afghanistan’s diplomacy to the keyhole of delivering ‘good Taliban’ – a holy grail that is not in sight.

    Let us redefine the parameters of peace in Afghanistan by expanding the diplomatic horizons and making a serious concerted pitch for some stability and sanity in our soft underbelly. Without the conflict ending on Afghan soil, our border management efforts will remain a mere firefight and have to be the main goal of our Afghanistan policy which we need to pursue relentlessly.

    The writer is former executive editor of The News and a senior journalist with Geo TV.

    Email: syedtalathussain@gmail.com

    Twitter: @TalatHussain12
    https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/191934-Dealing-with-the-Afghans
     
  5. Xlvee01

    Xlvee01 FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    540
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2017
    Ratings:
    +0 / 483 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    My two cents. To have a stable relationship, both countries need to identify their goals and objectives and wherever these overlap, must work together in a planned manner. The expectations of both sides must be managed accordingly. Afghanistan must realize that we do not have any magic elixir that will resolve all their problems and we must realize that the present Afghan government does not have enough fire power to cleanse its border areas of all miscreants. During Ashraf Ghani's initial days, it seemed that both promised each other the moon and, when they realized that they aren't gonna be getting what they promised, both resorted to cloak and daggers game. At this point, who started first is not important as the trust during the initial stages is shattered and needs to rebuilt. On top of that, our eastern neighbour sensed the space to move in and cause us further harm.

    Both countries must realise that their economic future is tied to one another. Afghanistan's to ours even more. Both want peace in the region. A framework, that helps both define both our objectives and work to achieve them with timelines that manage each other's expectations must be evolved. By being open and shunning the old game can we move forward. Otherwise, this region will be mired in instability.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  6. Menace2Society

    Menace2Society BANNED

    Messages:
    6,715
    Joined:
    May 2, 2011
    Ratings:
    +10 / 9,991 / -9
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    For relations to normalize 2 things must happen:

    1 - There has to be a big military campaign to destroy all TTP/ISIS safe havens in Eastern Afghanistan. This may directly or indirectly involve Pakistan.

    2 - Regime change. New leaders must take charge with fresh ideas and involve Pashtun community more in decision making.

    So essentially peace or a framework for peace cannot be built until there is regime change in Afghanistan.

    Pakistan can then reach out to new leadership and start rebuilding ties.
     
  7. sbh02

    sbh02 FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    404
    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2016
    Ratings:
    +0 / 428 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United States
    Need to keep them at an arm's distance.

    Fence the border, but don't cut all diplomatic ties with them. They are part of the bigger CPEC picture/plan.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  8. mrrehan

    mrrehan FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    347
    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2015
    Ratings:
    +0 / 230 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Australia
    No one is waiting that to be happened in Pakistan, but yes a stable afghan government not hostile towards Pakistan. And this is not much.

    This is not the opinion of members of this forum ONLY. Current NAWAZ Government has known and proved herself against the STATE of Pakistan.

    The stakes of security agencies is there for PAKISTAN because Govt. is not believer in any foreign policy even on foreign MINISTRY. Once again stakes are there because "stable afghan government not hostile towards Pakistan".

    In view of the above answers calculate this one by yourself :)
     
  9. Hell Raiser

    Hell Raiser FULL MEMBER

    New Recruit

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Ratings:
    +0 / 23 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Saudi Arabia
    The Af-Pak Relationship should be that of a slave and his master. With afghans willing to do what ever it takes to please their Pakistani masters. For that is the only relationship dynamic that they understand.
    Notions like equality and fair play are lost on them.
    Then again, what can be expected from the land of perpetual warfare? For them , it is either be the oppressor or be oppressed. Pakistan should throw them down and show them her dominance and they'll serve us for next thousand years.
    Any resistance faced, should be brutally crushed.
    No Hearts and Minds BS.
     
  10. omarrk

    omarrk FULL MEMBER

    New Recruit

    Messages:
    12
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2017
    Ratings:
    +0 / 9 / -0
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    There should be a cordial relationship between Pakistan and Afghanistan but unfortunately that will not happen while our northern neighbor is being led estray by hindutva agent intent on damaging Pakistan. India is playing with fire and it does not stop then Pakistan and China will have to get involved in the internal matters within India and give support and funding to numerous regions who want to breakaway. I can see this leading to the complete breakdown of India.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  11. hassamun

    hassamun FULL MEMBER

    Messages:
    769
    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2016
    Ratings:
    +2 / 535 / -1
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    United Arab Emirates
    One of the best solutions to avoid future problems is to build a Wall at the Border. Allow only a few Road entrances/exits which shall be heavily guarded...

    Don't cut ties with Afghanistan...Don't forget that Afghanistan uses our Seaports for trade from the outside world....
     
  12. Hell Raiser

    Hell Raiser FULL MEMBER

    New Recruit

    Messages:
    62
    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2014
    Ratings:
    +0 / 23 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Saudi Arabia
    We should bleed them dry for the privilege of using our ports
     
  13. Pakistansdefender

    Pakistansdefender SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    2,485
    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2016
    Ratings:
    +1 / 2,104 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    God know we Pakistanis have suffered and suffered great because of Afghanistan.
    People who have read history can tell how many times Afghanistan plotted to break pakistan along with India. Even in this weak state, they are working on Indian agenda of somewhat breaking Pakistan. NDS is more busy in doing anti pakistan activities then protecting their own people.
    We must keep few things in mind.
    1. Afghanistan and India would always be best friends.
    2. Afghanistan would always hate pakistan, and blame everything on pakistan. Even bad weather was due to Pakistan according to the Afghans.
    3. The situation in afghanistan is very grave and grim. Even if by some miracle all of Taliban's and isis would drop dead naturally, still after that there is not going to be peace in afghanistan for ages sadly. The country is fighting for more then 40 years. Peace would be very slow if any.
    4. International powers want to play their proxies in Afghanistan, it is no longer India vs Pakistan proxy ground but now also u.s , China's and Russia's too. International powers have no plan to leave. Sadly so called afghan leaders also wants the occupation to continue so they can rule.
    5. Talks with Taliban is not going to succeed, NDS would never let that happen, no matter how hard Pakistan try. Taliban still after killing billions are popular.

    What things pakistan must do :
    1. Pakistan must fence the border as soon as it can. Do whatever you have to do, bring money from where ever you can but seal it. Afghanistan would definitely create problems at some points, be ready and give appropriate replies and continue to seal your border . 2 years is too much. We need to seal it quick. As a pakistani I truly wanted the border to be open , so people can come and go, same tribes live on both sides, but the proxies coming into pakistan from Afghanistan is too great a risk. It would continue and continue. We must tell afghanistan leaders and Afghans, things would be the same as before, after you set your house in order. Also we need to tell them that, afghanistan claims of Taliban coming from Pakistan can be checked if the border is closed. Surely afghanistan also has full right to man their side of border.
    2. Send back all Afghans including every one related to Taliban or Haqani network, back to Afghanistan. Their is a report few days back , Taliban feel unsafe in Pakistan due to drone attacks, also they control more then 50 percent of Afghanistan. So they prefer to hide in Iran and Afghanistan itself. Get rid of every single Afghan, I know it's cruel, but that's the only way to end allegations. Flatly and frankly tell afghanistan to take back every refuge or else stop allegations. We cannot screen every refugee. Offer formally to India to take Afghan refugees.
    3. Afghan leaders are as corrupt as ours. We can buy them to lessen some indian influence , which is futile but can try.
    4. Engage afghani Forces, intelligence, government . Make sure we are closing the border and sending everyone back. Tell them, there is no Afghan left in Pakistan and border is sealed . Now solve Your Own matters.
    4. Afghanistan would never help but nurture the proxies such as ttp, balochi insurgents against Pakistan. Frankly, they are Afghanistan and their master India's assets. They have invested in them. We have to eliminate them ourselves.
    5. Facilitate Afghans as much as you can in using our ports. Make trains only for exports. Make Afghanistan believe that their future is in central Asia and not in south Asia. Make afghanistan believe, that we would accept Afghan and Indian friendship, but Afghans would keep it out while dealing with Pakistan.
    5. Afghan future lie in CAREC corridor along with Pakistan. They can continue to have their relationship with India through Chahbahar or air corridor. But they too have to not base their relationship with Pakistan W.r.t India.
    6. Start cultural exchange with Afghanistan. Send our phusto singers and things. They are quite popular there, for soft diplomacy .
    7.Revive our trade back. Afghanistan is a very important market and we don't want to loose it . Revive our trade deals with them.

    Time Is now to shut ourselves for good. Let them sort their own matters. Let nds struck the deal with Taliban lolx. They would be exposed how sincere they are.
    You cannot fight an enemy who controls more then 50 percent of land and have local people's support . You can only mainstream them, but it is only for Afghans to decide. We cannot tell them.
    If you sincerely include taliban in some low level power circle, they would respond. But everything Afghans have to do is on their own.
    Pakistan won't kill Afghan Taliban or Haqani, if they walk openly in streets. We have too many enemies , we cannot make More.
    1. It's time to send Afghans Taliban, haqqani and odinary Afghans back to their country so they can sort themselves out.
    2. Make afghanistan believe that don't bring their relationship with India W. R. T CAREC corridor. Keep relationship with India separate. Work with Afghanistan along with central Asian republics. This is afghanistan and Pakistan future. Offer Afghanistan to be part of cpec too.
    3.we ourselves have to eliminate Indian and Afghan anti pakistan nexus or proxies through secret or direct operations, or drone strikes.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2017
  14. Ahsan abbas12

    Ahsan abbas12 FULL MEMBER

    New Recruit

    Messages:
    12
    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2017
    Ratings:
    +0 / 3 / -0
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Pakistan
    Afghanistan’s peaceful future depends to a great extent on an auspicious regional environment, with Pakistan at its core. Conversely, an unstable Afghanistan threatens Pakistan, complicating the latter’s ability to refurbish its weak state and economy and suppress dangerous internal militancy. But in the absence of dramatically improved relations with India, Pakistan is likely to prefer an unstable Afghanistan to a strong Afghanistan closely aligned with India. Pakistan thus retains an interest in not liquidating its long-term relationship with the Afghan Taliban and the Haqqani network, a policy that exacerbates Afghan instability.

    Policy Implications

    • Although the outreach to Pakistan by Afghan President Ashraf Ghani has warmed relations between the two countries, Pakistan’s geostrategic outlook and the limitations of its selective counterterrorism policies have not resolutely changed.
     
  15. CriticalThought

    CriticalThought SENIOR MEMBER

    Messages:
    5,969
    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2016
    Ratings:
    +9 / 5,644 / -6
    Country:
    Pakistan
    Location:
    Australia
    Pakistan should absorb all Pakhtun majority areas adjacent to its borders. As the borders expand, this should be applied recursively to the new border. The Afghan population should be brought into the mainstream with education and infra-structure development. This is the most ideal way forward.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1