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Oghuz Turks, Turcoman and Turkmen

Targon

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Turk has replaced Turkmen probably because Turkmen had a more rough use, usually used for hard living nomads who were illiterate, done a lot of looting and stuff. While Turk had a higher status, a more covering term that includes Oghuz Khagan, old myths and stuff. So the new settled elite preferred the latter.

I think origin of "Turkmen" has something to do with racial and cultural influences that islamization brought. Muslims probably first used it like "Turks that are more like us". As far as I know Turkmen wasnt originally applied to Oghuz, it was applied a small, seperate group in a neighbouring region who were probably muslims with partially mixed status.
 

Attila the Hun

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Turk has replaced Turkmen probably because Turkmen had a more rough use, usually used for hard living nomads who were illiterate, done a lot of looting and stuff. While Turk had a higher status, a more covering term that includes Oghuz Khagan, old myths and stuff. So the new settled elite preferred the latter.

I think origin of "Turkmen" has something to do with racial and cultural influences that islamization brought. Muslims probably first used it like "Turks that are more like us". As far as I know Turkmen wasnt originally applied to Oghuz, it was applied a small, seperate group in a neighbouring region who were probably muslims with partially mixed status.
All really fascinating stuff,
 

BordoEnes

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Turk has replaced Turkmen probably because Turkmen had a more rough use, usually used for hard living nomads who were illiterate, done a lot of looting and stuff. While Turk had a higher status, a more covering term that includes Oghuz Khagan, old myths and stuff. So the new settled elite preferred the latter.

I think origin of "Turkmen" has something to do with racial and cultural influences that islamization brought. Muslims probably first used it like "Turks that are more like us". As far as I know Turkmen wasnt originally applied to Oghuz, it was applied a small, seperate group in a neighbouring region who were probably muslims with partially mixed status.
I always assumed "Turkmen" was just a longer version of saying Turk. After all doesnt Turkmen(Turkish: Turkben) meaning "Turk me" or "I am Turk".
 

Targon

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I always assumed "Turkmen" was just a longer version of saying Turk. After all doesnt Turkmen(Turkish: Turkben) meaning "Turk me" or "I am Turk".
Nah it doesn't makes sense. Most accepted etymology is Turkmanend which means like a Turk, resembles a Turk. Wiki says Karluks were called Turkmen too btw.
 

Oghuz Turk

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Oghuz = Turkmen
Mongols are not Turkic genetically, only culturally since Uygur Turkics made ALL the text and scripture of Tengriism and Horse Nomads.

The equation is this:

Turk = Turkic = Oghuz = Turkmen =/= Mongol

Turkic = Tatar = Nogai = Uyghur = Cuman =/= Mongol

Closer the cultural subtype, closer the genetics.

3 main wings of Turkics:

Oghuz = Turks, Azeri, Turkmen, Qashqai, Gagauz
Kipchak/Cuman = Tatar, Bashkir, Chuvash, Mishar, Nogai
Karluk = Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uygur
 

Attila the Hun

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Oghuz = Turkmen
Mongols are not Turkic genetically, only culturally since Uygur Turkics made ALL the text and scripture of Tengriism and Horse Nomads.

The equation is this:

Turk = Turkic = Oghuz = Turkmen =/= Mongol

Turkic = Tatar = Nogai = Uyghur = Cuman =/= Mongol

Closer the cultural subtype, closer the genetics.

3 main wings of Turkics:

Oghuz = Turks, Azeri, Turkmen, Qashqai, Gagauz
Kipchak/Cuman = Tatar, Bashkir, Chuvash, Mishar, Nogai
Karluk = Uzbek, Kazakh, Kyrgyz, Uygur
Only culturally because the Mongols came to the region later on. Anyways less about Mongols, we don't care for them, they're not Turkic. No matter how hard some wish lol.

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Oghuz Turks from the past and present.
 

asena_great

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Nah it doesn't makes sense. Most accepted etymology is Turkmanend which means like a Turk, resembles a Turk. Wiki says Karluks were called Turkmen too btw.
slow down cow boy there is a new sheriff in town now :D u are writing from pan-farsist propaganda first azeri's being iranian (there is no people existed as azeris ) now turkmen being resembles a turk ?? :lol: i know u bro and u know me i search for hours in google about my people's origin i have my own theories about why we have turk and turkmens it's about change of politics and culture when we become muslem u see all the turkmens still keep their clan and tribal identity while turks abandon them have u ever ask why ??? for why u must take a look at our pro islamic culture . in my view before we become muslem we had a several different gods and each of these gods had tribe or clan named after them which means that clan/tribe actually descendant of that god which make every person who is turk a god this make turks above other nations this is why we had slavery until 20 century cuz we were god and other people was our subjects this is why my people see marriage between them and non oghuz as unthinkable blasphemy( although they forget the reason behind it ) . few example of these clans like gerey (kerey) The god of discord who was son of erlik the death god ( my mother is a gereyli turkmen ) or Jaiyk the god of river (my father was a karanjaiyk turkmen )

ok now lets go back to the topic why we have turkmen and turk answer is clear turks become muslem first they abandon their tribal identity they had 1 god (allah) 1 king who rule instead of god (ottoman sultans ) so they change religiously (1 god and not being gods sons ) and politically ( 1 sultan who rule instead of god while among turkmen everyone rule and they are equal to each other our bash (lord) are our equal if we are unhappy with them we will kill them ofc ) this also allow turks to accept other different people into their nation and their centralization of power allow ottoman sultan rule without challenge advantage which turkmens didn't had so in conclusion

turks are oghuz who become muslem . accept allah as their god and adopted king and subject policy they make very long standing empires

turkmens are oghuz who rejected islam in the first place and in the best of times they see allah as their equal not their betters , each clan proud of the turkic god they were descendant of , their system is mostly democratic which lead to the lack of central power and this is why turkmens dont have long standing empire

turkmen means i am a turk turkmens use men for ben
 

Targon

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@asena_great

That is a little far fetched :D Turk and Turkmen was used interchangeably at early times(like till 1300s or something). Some European travellers(Marco Polo) even called Anatolia as "Turcomania". I think neither Turk or Turkmen was initially the self denonym that those people used for themselves. Its like other people calling Germans as German or Niemtzy but they didnt called them like that, they were Deutch. For us it was initially Oghuz and the names of smaller invidual tribes. But later we gradually adopted Turk/Turkmen because everyone around us was calling us that. Turk was always a more covering term, it even included Mongols and Hungarians at some point. It included all of those people's culture and mythology. Turkmen was a more narrow term which as I said most likely invented after the islamization of turkic tribes. And no I highly doubt it comes from "Turk men" it doesnt makes sense. And as I said it wasnt even the initial self denonym we used. We adopted it later.

In the west Turk become dominant to Turkmen simply because the ruling class was settled, literate, independent from tribal affections. The ordinary tribal Turkmens were crude compared to them so they considered being called "Turkmen" as something like being called a peasant. Turk came out as a more noble sounding name. Although ruling elite largely called themselves Rumi anyways. Especially in later times both Turk and Turkmen was deemed negative. Turkmen is continued to be used for tribal nomads in eastern anatolia. Turk was generally used for settled peasants.
 

Brutas

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Mongols over ran Russia and Eastern Europe. Yet, in Russia and Eastern Europe, Mongols are called Tatars (Supposedly Turkic people) ? Any rational explanation ?
 

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