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RiazHaq

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Discussion on India in President Barack Obama's memoir titled "A Promised Land" reveals what the former US President thought about India, particularly Indian hostility against Pakistan. Obama also reveals that President-elect Joseph R. Biden opposed the US Navy Seals raid to kill Usama Bin Laden in Abbottabad in 2011. Biden was Obama's Vice President at the time.


Obama's Book Excerpts:

“Expressing hostility toward Pakistan was still the quickest route to national unity (in India)”.

"Violence, both public and private, remained an all-too-pervasive part of Indian life”.

"(Manmohan) Singh had resisted calls to retaliate against Pakistan after the (Mumbai) attacks, but his restraint had cost him politically. He feared that rising anti-Muslim sentiment had strengthened the influence of India’s main opposition party, the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)"

"Across the country (India), millions continued to live in squalor, trapped in sunbaked villages or labyrinthine slums, even as the titans of Indian industry enjoyed lifestyles that the rajas and moguls of old would have envied".

“Joe (Biden) weighed in against the (Usama Bin Laden) raid (on compound in Pakistan)”

Biden-Trump Debate:

In his first debate with Democratic Presidential candidate Joseph R. Biden, President Donald Trump questioned India's coronavirus data while responding to Biden's accusation that his opponent has badly mishandled the pandemic. About 21 minutes into the debate, Trump said: "And, by the way, when you talk about numbers, you don’t know how many people died in China. You don’t know how many people died in Russia. You don’t know how many people died in India. They don’t exactly give you a straight count, just so you understand".

Talking about climate change, Trump accused India of being a leading polluter. About an hour into the debate, Trump said: "China sends up real dirt into the air. Russia does. India does. They all do". There are reports suggesting India has surpassed China as the world's top polluter. Images captured by the Dutch space instrument, Tropomi, show high concentrations pollutants like Nitrogen dioxide, Ozone and other pollutants produced by car traffic, industry and power stations in India, according to a Business Insider report.

Ambassador Kishore Mahbubani on India:

"One hard truth that Indians have to contend with is that America has also had difficulty treating India with respect", writes former Singaporean diplomat Kishore Mahbubani in his latest book "Has China Won?". "If America wants to develop a close long-term relationship with India over the long run, it needs to confront the deep roots of its relative lack of respect for India", adds Ambassador Mahbubani. It's not just Mahbubani who suspects the United States leadership does not respect India. Others, including former President Bill Clinton, current US President Donald Trump, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and CNN GPS host Fareed Zakaria have expressed similar sentiments.

Trump and Clinton:

There is some evidence to support Ambassador Mahbubani's assertion about America's lack of respect for India. For example, ex US President Bill Clinton said in 1990s that India has a Rodney Dangerfield problem: It can’t get no respect, according to his deputy secretary of state Strobe Talbott. In a diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks in 2010, Hillary Clinton referred to India as "a self-appointed frontrunner for a permanent UN security council seat."

More recently, US President Donald Trump mocked Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi about Indian contribution to Afghanistan. Trump said he got along very well with Prime Minister Narendra Modi, but the Indian leader was "constantly telling me he built a library in Afghanistan". "That's like five hours of what we spend... And we are supposed to say, 'oh, thank you for the library'. I don't know who is using it in Afghanistan," Trump said.

Western Media:

Indians were justifiably very proud of their great scientific achievement when the India Space Agency ISRO successfully launched the nation's Mars Mission back in 2013. The New York Times, America's leading newspaper, mocked India with a cartoon depicting the country as a dhoti-wearing farmer with his cow knocking on the door of the Elite Space Club.

New York Times Cartoon


In an article titled "Paper Elephant", the Economist magazine talked about how India has ramped up its military spending and emerged as the world's largest arms importer. "Its military doctrine envisages fighting simultaneous land wars against Pakistan and China while retaining dominance in the Indian Ocean", the article said. It summed up the situation as follows: "India spends a fortune on defense and gets poor value for money".

After the India-Pakistan aerial combat over Kashmir, New York Times published a story from its South Asia correspondent headlined: "After India Loses Dogfight to Pakistan, Questions Arise About Its Military". Here are some excerpts of the report:

"Its (India's) loss of a plane last week to a country (Pakistan) whose military is about half the size and receives a quarter (a sixth according to SIPRI) of the funding is telling. ...India’s armed forces are in alarming shape....It was an inauspicious moment for a military the United States is banking on to help keep an expanding China in check".

Fareed Zakaria:

CNN GPS host Fareed Zakaria is known to be among the loudest cheerleaders for India and a sharp critic of Pakistan. While he still refuses to say anything that could even remotely be considered positive about Pakistan, it seems that he is souring on his native India.

Speaking with Indian journalist Shekhar Gupta on The Print YouTube channel, Fareed Zakaria called the Indian state an “inefficient state”.“Indian government functions very poorly, even in comparison to other developing countries. Coronavirus has highlighted that reality, " he added. He did not clearly speak about the lynchings of Indian Muslims by people affiliated with the ruling BJP and the brutality of Indian military against Kashmiri Muslims, but he did ask: “What I wonder about (Prime Minister Narendra) Modi is, is he really bringing all of India along with him? He noted sadly:”India seems like roadkill for China".

Has New Delhi's abject failure in containing the coronavirus pandemic finally done what Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi's extreme brutality and open hatred against Zakaria's fellow Indian Muslims could not do? Has he really had it with Hindu Nationalist government? While he has not used his perch on CNN to do it, it appears that he has started expressing his disapproval of the performance on other platforms.

Here are a few of the key points Fareed Zakaria made while speaking with Shekhar Gupta:

1. There’s no doubt in my mind that the Indian government, and by that I mean the Delhi government, has handled this crisis (COVID19) very poorly.

2. Indian government functions very poorly, even in comparison to other developing countries. Coronavirus has highlighted that reality.

3. In a way, India seems like roadkill for China’s obsession with absolute control over their borders. I do think there is an opportunity here for diplomacy. I don’t think India needs to be confrontational about it (the LAC issue), but of course it should push back.

4. It is now a bipolar world. US and China are way ahead of the rest of the world. For the long term, India needs to decide it’s position with China.

4. Turkey under Erdogan has become more confident and independent. It is culturally proud. It is telling Americans to buzz off.

5. Popularity of political leaders around the world is linked to their performance on the coronavirus pandemic. In India, however, the issues of religion and caste are still dominating.

6. What I wonder about (Prime Minister Narendra) Modi is, is he really bringing all of India along with him? How many Muslims in Indian government? Or South Indians in BJP? It is much less diverse than Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru's cabinet.

7. I have been very sad to see how Indian democracy has developed over the last few years. It has become an illiberal democracy.

8. The India media is slavishly pro-government. Self-censorship is widespread in India.

9. The Indian courts fold in cases where government takes serious interest.

Summary:

“Expressing hostility toward Pakistan was still the quickest route to national unity (in India)”, writes former US President Barack Obama in his memoir titled "A Promised Land. Obama goes on to add: "Violence, both public and private, remained an all-too-pervasive part of Indian life”. Singaporean diplomat, analyst and writer Kishore Mahbubani has argued in his latest book "Has China Won?" that America does not really respect India. Others, including ex US President Bill Clinton, current President Donald Trump, former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and CNN GPS host Fareed Zakaria, have expressed similar sentiments. It has become increasingly clear that India's loudest cheerleaders like Fareed Zakaria are now starting to see the stark reality of Modi's India as a big failure on multiple fronts. Indian state has failed to contain the deadly COVID19 pandemic. India's economy is in serious trouble. The country's democracy is in decline. India seems like a roadkill for China. This turn of events has created serious problems for Pakistani "liberals" who have long seen and often cited India as a successful example of "secular democracy" at work in South Asia.

Here's a video clip from CNN GPS Show:






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Imran Khan

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bhai we liberals give indian example when india was democratic country . but things changed time changed and india turned fascist country . is there anything wrong ?. even USA is no more good example in just 5 years USA went down . and yes pakistan is same mess today no party admit defeat in GB elections and doing dirty job as always see papa bachao kids remarks and their slaves today news .
 

CrazyZ

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Obama is correct. All one has to do is look at the past Hindu empires in S Asia to see how the sectarian nature of Hinduism lead to infighting, fracturing, and defeat by invaders. The most successful longest lasting empires in S Asia were Muslim. Modern India uses Pakistan as an external bogeyman to unify its various sects and economic classes. BJP may undermine this in the long run since this approach was largely pioneered by secular forces in India.
 

Jugger

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I agree with Obama, a strong sense of nationalism arose due to animosity with Pakistan.
Democracy and Pakistan has united India like no other force.
 

rent4country

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Let's set aside this strange piece from Riaz, who tries to take a mundane statement from Obama and ties it to a collage of quotes from other characters_ to make up some self-serving theme. I was wondering if all this excitement about Obama said something against India is for the same Obama who quadrupled the drone attacks on Pakistani sovereign soil, who send many ambassadors, generals, and state dept secretary to tell Pakistan they were supporters of terrorism and sent American forces into sovereign Pakistan airspace to kill OBL without bothering to inform the Pakistanis- while fully prepared to shoot down PAK planes if they interfered?

This is the guy (Obama) that Riaz is excited about for saying anti-Pakistan conversation unites India? I'd bet Indians would agree with Obama. I just don't see it as shocking.
 
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CrazyZ

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Let's set aside this strange piece from Riaz, who tries to take a mundane statement from Obama and ties it to a collage of quotes from other characters_ to make up some self-serving theme. I was wondering if all this excitement about Obama said something against India is for the same Obama who quadrupled the drone attacks on Pakistani sovereign soil, who send many ambassadors, generals, and state dept secretary to tell Pakistan they were supporters of terrorism and sent American forces into sovereign Pakistan airspace to kill OBL without bothering to inform the Pakistanis- and was fully prepared to shot down PAK planes if they interfered?

This is the guy (Obama) that Riaz is excited about for saying anti-Pakistan conversation unites India? I'd bet Indians would agree with Obama. I just don't see it as shocking.
You are correct. However when historian's dissect the Afghanistan war, they will determine that Obama's pro-India anti-Pakistan stance is what lead to the partial defeat of the USA. OBL could have been killed in the 90's if the USA was more willing to work with Musharraf.
 

AgNoStiC MuSliM

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This is the guy (Obama) that Riaz is excited about for saying anti-Pakistan conversation unites India?
It's not about 'excitement' - it's about validation.

Pakistanis have been pointing this fact out for decades now, about how, relative to the Pakistani media and Pakistani society, anti-Pakistan hate-mongering and othering is pervasive in India, in their media, their elections, their social discourse.

The problem has been that India and its cheerleaders in the West quite successfully sold the opposite of reality, that it was Pakistan that was obsessed with an anti-India narrative, that Pakistan's media was somehow swamped with anti-India hate-mongering, our elections revolved around anti-India messaging and that Pakistan was in essence a country defined by being 'anti-India'.

The reality is that it is India, especially under the BJP, that is increasingly defining itself as a country that is anti-Pakistan and hates Pakistan.

Pointing out the reality of anti-Pakistan hate-mongering and 'othering' by the Indian government, media and society isn't 'excitement', it's a reality check for Indian cheerleaders in the West who have for so long either deliberately (because of the Don Quixotic pursuit of China containment and the rise in anti-Muslim sentiment post 9/11) or/and out of sheer ineptitude, parroted Delhi's anti-Pakistan messaging.

P.S: Most Pakistanis aren't under any illusions about Obama (and now Biden) being 'pro-Pakistan'. US Establishment candidates will continue to follow US Establishment direction on foreign policy. It's one of the reasons why Pakistanis actually liked Trump - he was willing to buck the US Establishment to a degree and extricate the US from military interventions abroad, such as Afghanistan.

The Democrats are more likely to pander to the US Establishment's demands of military interventions to 'promote and spread freedom and democracy' by massacring hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children in US driven conflicts abroad.
 
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RiazHaq

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Obama's Book Excerpts:


All politics and violence in India revolve around "religion, clan and caste".

"Despite genuine economic progress, India remained a chaotic and impoverished place: largely divided by religion and caste, captive to the whims of corrupt local officials and power brokers".

Indians take "great pride in the knowledge that India had developed nuclear weapons to match Pakistan's, untroubled by the fact that a single miscalculation by either side could risk regional annihilation".
 

Vikki

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bhai we liberals give indian example when india was democratic country . but things changed time changed and india turned fascist country . is there anything wrong ?. even USA is no more good example in just 5 years USA went down . and yes pakistan is same mess today no party admit defeat in GB elections and doing dirty job as always see papa bachao kids remarks and their slaves today news .
Brother I dont agree indians have become radical..if it were so christians and muslims wouldn't have been living a peaceful life...you would have heard bombing of churches and mosques like in pakistan.
India is still relatively secular country and safe for minorities.
The only thing that pushed hindus towards BJP is unpatriotic and violent attitude of muslims.
If muslims were patriotic and non violent BJP would have never come into power..in fact bjp would have never formed....hindutva is a political ideology that was born as a reaction to fundamental islam in India.
Hinduism is not an organised religion like christianity or islam...moreover hindus are divided on the basis of castes....for much of independent india a substantial hindus used to vote on the basis of caste....people like mayawati ,mulayam singh , laloo prasad yadav etc thrived on caste politics.
Then how come suddenly hindus who identified themselves with caste more than religion suddenly adopted religion as their identity and started voting for hindu BJP?
Think impartially..without any bias and you will get the answer.
 

Imran Khan

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Brother I dont agree indians have become radical..if it were so christians and muslims wouldn't have been living a peaceful life...you would have heard bombing of churches and mosques like in pakistan.
India is still relatively secular country and safe for minorities.
The only thing that pushed hindus towards BJP is unpatriotic and violent attitude of muslims.
If muslims were patriotic and non violent BJP would have never come into power..in fact bjp would have never formed....hindutva is a political ideology that was born as a reaction to fundamental islam in India.
Hinduism is not an organised religion like christianity or islam...moreover hindus are divided on the basis of castes....for much of independent india a substantial hindus used to vote on the basis of caste....people like mayawati ,mulayam singh , laloo prasad yadav etc thrived on caste politics.
Then how come suddenly hindus who identified themselves with caste more than religion suddenly adopted religion as their identity and started voting for hindu BJP?
Think impartially..without any bias and you will get the answer.
this post reflects extremism and hate towards pakistan and proved again writer is 100% right :lol:
 
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kingQamaR

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Brother I dont agree indians have become radical..if it were so christians and muslims wouldn't have been living a peaceful life...you would have heard bombing of churches and mosques like in pakistan.
India is still relatively secular country and safe for minorities.
The only thing that pushed hindus towards BJP is unpatriotic and violent attitude of muslims.
If muslims were patriotic and non violent BJP would have never come into power..in fact bjp would have never formed....hindutva is a political ideology that was born as a reaction to fundamental islam in India.
Hinduism is not an organised religion like christianity or islam...moreover hindus are divided on the basis of castes....for much of independent india a substantial hindus used to vote on the basis of caste....people like mayawati ,mulayam singh , laloo prasad yadav etc thrived on caste politics.
Then how come suddenly hindus who identified themselves with caste more than religion suddenly adopted religion as their identity and started voting for hindu BJP?
Think impartially..without any bias and you will get the answer.
here’s just one article I posted for you below many hundreds more exist its for your ignorance on your society sick acts which you gloss over. Indian Muslims are not Pakistanis nothing in common with us so better stop doing this to them.

The 2020 Delhi riots, or North East Delhi riots, were multiple waves of bloodshed, property destruction, and rioting in North East Delhi, beginning on 23 February and caused chiefly by Hindu mobs attacking Muslims. ... By mid-March many Muslimshad remained missing. Muslims were marked as targets for violence.
 

Vikki

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here’s just one article I posted for you below many hundreds more exist its for your ignorance on your society sick acts which you gloss over. Indian Muslims are not Pakistanis nothing in common with us so better stop doing this to them.

The 2020 Delhi riots, or North East Delhi riots, were multiple waves of bloodshed, property destruction, and rioting in North East Delhi, beginning on 23 February and caused chiefly by Hindu mobs attacking Muslims. ... By mid-March many Muslimshad remained missing. Muslims were marked as targets for violence.
Delhi riots were started by muslims....
 

kingQamaR

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Delhi riots were started by muslims....

S
Delhi riots were started by muslims....
a very normal response of Indians like you to be apologist and blame the victims for there mass deaths

how are you people any different to Africans murdering genocide I got no idea your a cesspit nation

I honestly think you’ve over stayed on PDF you should just F OFF , and find a forum that shares your psychological defects. you will always be our ugly dark neighbours to be kept at arms lengths from our society
 

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