What's new

Not much has changed for IAF a year after it was outgunned by Pakistan

Jugger

SENIOR MEMBER
Nov 17, 2016
3,165
-9
2,860
Country
India
Location
France
I am seriously doubting the on Paper specs of Export versions of Russian Hardware. In hands of Russians its always spot on and even the highly advanced Europe is afraid of them. While the exported versions are either extremely watered down, or the training is lacking.
I mean imagine if India had F5s with AIM120s instead of Mig21s with R77. And F15 or F18s instead of Flankers. How would things have been very different?. I mean look at the SU30 mki and its armaments theoretical Specs. You will feel like it can shoot down any Pakistani Plane right from take off. But not the case in practice so far.
I do not think Russians weapons are useless or ineffective by any means. As you see IAF is operating antique aircraft’s even today only because it’s adversaries are not much better.
But after this engagement it is evident that Mig 21 has no role to play in IAF any longer, we can’t always have a mig 21 against mirage 3/5s ..! There will be times when IAFs worst will face PAFs best, in such situations we know who will have the upper hand.
Operational tempo and situations dictate the outcome of an air engagement, see in the gulf war Iraq’s inferior airforce was totally defeated by USAF, but they still managed to down one f-18 with their not so good mig 25.
Does that mean mig 25 is better than f-18s..?? Should USAF throw their f-18 fleet into the sea..! Definitely not.
 

litman

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 14, 2016
4,732
-2
6,475
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Even you placed all you might in east it wouldnot have worked..you simply had no resources..and poor planning(no bengali in army)
Establishment thought east will not be attacked due to hindhu minority they forgot that we displaced them during the civil war which is one of the "reasons" for war..

Army should have 50% bengalis
agreed. i think it was a wrong partition since the very first day. there should have been three countries since 47. defending a country which is far away from the mainland with a huge hostile country is impossible. secondly bangladesh is surrounded from three sides by india and they did naval blockade as well so it was completely surrounded from all sides by india. the only military option was to annex indian assam by cutting of the "chicken neck" but for that large amount of military was required which was not there and chinese help was a must to sustain it for a long time.
 

ahmadnawaz22

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 26, 2009
2,949
6
2,803
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
I do not think Russians weapons are useless or ineffective by any means. As you see IAF is operating antique aircraft’s even today only because it’s adversaries are not much better.
But after this engagement it is evident that Mig 21 has no role to play in IAF any longer, we can’t always have a mig 21 against mirage 3/5s ..! There will be times when IAFs worst will face PAFs best, in such situations we know who will have the upper hand.
Operational tempo and situations dictate the outcome of an air engagement, see in the gulf war Iraq’s inferior airforce was totally defeated by USAF, but they still managed to down one f-18 with their not so good mig 25.
Does that mean mig 25 is better than f-18s..?? Should USAF throw their f-18 fleet into the sea..! Definitely not.
Not just India. In-fact India is one of the better Air forces when it comes to track record with Russian Hardware. Look at Syria, Libya, Iraq, Eastern Europe, African Countries.
And Mig 21 Bison is not a legacy Mig 21 to be brushed aside. Its BVR Capable armed with R-77 which is supposed to be equivalent to AIM120.
And BTW I think That Iraqi Mig-25 Shooting down F-18 is the only one case in whole world where a 4th generation Western Jet was shoot down by a soviet/Russian jet in BVR or WVR Combat correct me if i am wrong?(Not counting Irani Losses in Iran Iraq war as Iran was under sanctions and Supply of support, parts and armaments was completely cut to iran while the F14 platform was acquired just a few years prior to breakout of war.)

Is it that Russians Overstate the export variants of their Weapons? Or is it lack of training?
During last week in Syria. The Syrian Buk, Pantsir and S-300 completely failed to intercept Turkish Drone onslaught over Syria Arab Army. Fighting is still going on there but so far i cannot understand why Turkish drones are not shot down in numbers as they are supposed to be considering the paper specs of Pantsir, S300 and Buk.
 

Pandora

SENIOR MEMBER
Feb 15, 2013
6,560
7
9,861
Country
Pakistan
Location
Australia
This story just keeps getting better and better with every new version.
Panicked Pakistani pilots, who broke into Punjabi rather than sticking to the military codes, fired about 11 H-4 glide-bombs, weighing 1,000 kg each, at Indian military installations, none of which hit the target.

https://theprint.in/defence/not-muc...ar-after-it-was-outgunned-by-pakistan/371821/
According to their own previous official account 4 sites were targeted but now suddenly number climbs to 11. Also by the time Indian jets took to air or even realised what was going on all engagements were finished. Pakistan has released official footage of all the targets it intended to hit and locked on. Also the story that Pakistan didnt cross LOC is also bogus considering footage of site targeted were recorded by Pakistani jets and were shown to media. Unlike India which has only empty farts. If Indians are openly declaring SU 30 an incapable jet then that is just simply pathetic and lame excuse. SU30 is an amazing fighter jet and Indian are simply incompetent that they couldn't utilize its full potential.
 

Viper27

FULL MEMBER
Sep 10, 2015
198
1
218
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
This story just keeps getting better and better with every new version.


According to their own previous official account 4 sites were targeted but now suddenly number climbs to 11. Also by the time Indian jets took to air or even realised what was going on all engagements were finished. Pakistan has released official footage of all the targets it intended to hit and locked on. Also the story that Pakistan didnt cross LOC is also bogus considering footage of site targeted were recorded by Pakistani jets and were shown to media. Unlike India which has only empty farts. If Indians are openly declaring SU 30 an incapable jet then that is just simply pathetic and lame excuse. SU30 is an amazing fighter jet and Indian are simply incompetent that they couldn't utilize its full potential.
We did not cross LoC. Footage was taken via H-4 sensors.
 

ziaulislam

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 22, 2010
14,729
10
13,919
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
agreed. i think it was a wrong partition since the very first day. there should have been three countries since 47. defending a country which is far away from the mainland with a huge hostile country is impossible. secondly bangladesh is surrounded from three sides by india and they did naval blockade as well so it was completely surrounded from all sides by india. the only military option was to annex indian assam by cutting of the "chicken neck" but for that large amount of military was required which was not there and chinese help was a must to sustain it for a long time.
That was plan orginally two different countries hence word states in 1940 & acceptance of cabinet mission by PMLN but it was later changed in 1946 due to many reasons (primary bengali leaders wanted unity for their own sake)

I do not think Russians weapons are useless or ineffective by any means. As you see IAF is operating antique aircraft’s even today only because it’s adversaries are not much better.
But after this engagement it is evident that Mig 21 has no role to play in IAF any longer, we can’t always have a mig 21 against mirage 3/5s ..! There will be times when IAFs worst will face PAFs best, in such situations we know who will have the upper hand.
Operational tempo and situations dictate the outcome of an air engagement, see in the gulf war Iraq’s inferior airforce was totally defeated by USAF, but they still managed to down one f-18 with their not so good mig 25.
Does that mean mig 25 is better than f-18s..?? Should USAF throw their f-18 fleet into the sea..! Definitely not.
On the topic..what was india doing for last 10 years PAF got the f16s in 2009..sleeping?

Second sat image anaylsis post balakot by third parties shows clearly what happened denying that has made IAF unprofessional in eyes of neutral observers. Recent release of end stage footage from H4s released by PAF doesnt help IAF either. It surely either a delibrate miss or wrong co ordinates by IAF

Third the fact that IAF had no AWAC coverage, no secure communication, no BVR superiority and no ability to use IFF system are serious short comings that led to mass causualities in the military operations (6 IAF members died)

In all it was serious and complete failure
Just claiming you shot an f16 that too by pinning it on abhi seems a cover up to begin with..PAF claims a su30 kill and has no evidence behind it but atleast they dont claim that an f7 shot down a su30.

In nutshell PER INDIAN AIRFORCE (this isnt me its your own airforce) almost for decade PAF had 5 superior fighter squardons with IAF caught napping...in a war IAF would have lost early stages really badly as F16s with 10 AWECS would have turkey shot all the IAF fighters..

IAF doesnt need 36 rafales it needs 100 and not tomorrow... yesterday

Both su 30 & mirages had radar issues so IAF need to go back to the drawing board to figure out what happened..
Astra isnt the solution if issue was radar lock..

2.4b for mirages down the drain..& now they wont get meteor..what a waste..mica wont cut it for BVR
 

CHI RULES

FULL MEMBER
Mar 23, 2015
1,855
5
1,543
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
I have loads of manners, just picked up a new batch from the store. Thanks for asking.
Cheers man not an Indian or sold out Pakistani I shall live here and die here. However what I asked is about thoughts of other members here not dumb to try to get a pro from PAF or a person involved in manufacturing. It is worthwhile to note that though not accurate yet some info always comes out there for comparison. I don't know why you are offended.
 

aliyusuf

FULL MEMBER
May 2, 2010
1,325
6
2,066
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
That was plan orginally two different countries hence word states in 1940 & acceptance of cabinet mission by PMLN but it was later changed in 1946 due to many reasons (primary bengali leaders wanted unity for their own sake)


On the topic..what was india doing for last 10 years PAF got the f16s in 2009..sleeping?

Second sat image anaylsis post balakot by third parties shows clearly what happened denying that has made IAF unprofessional in eyes of neutral observers. Recent release of end stage footage from H4s released by PAF doesnt help IAF either. It surely either a delibrate miss or wrong co ordinates by IAF

Third the fact that IAF had no AWAC coverage, no secure communication, no BVR superiority and no ability to use IFF system are serious short comings that led to mass causualities in the military operations (6 IAF members died)

In all it was serious and complete failure
Just claiming you shot an f16 that too by pinning it on abhi seems a cover up to begin with..PAF claims a su30 kill and has no evidence behind it but atleast they dont claim that an f7 shot down a su30.

In nutshell PER INDIAN AIRFORCE (this isnt me its your own airforce) almost for decade PAF had 5 superior fighter squardons with IAF caught napping...in a war IAF would have lost early stages really badly as F16s with 10 AWECS would have turkey shot all the IAF fighters..

IAF doesnt need 36 rafales it needs 100 and not tomorrow... yesterday

Both su 30 & mirages had radar issues so IAF need to go back to the drawing board to figure out what happened..
Astra isnt the solution if issue was radar lock..

2.4b for mirages down the drain..& now they wont get meteor..what a waste..mica wont cut it for BVR
Above all, what were the IAF doing in all these exercises which they had with other air forces that had F-16's? For over a decade? They didn't learn a thing? Boasting all the time on this forum that they had figured the Viper out inside out? What a shameful misuse of their tax payers' monies. They are in serious need for capacity building of their personnel. They seem to spend much on their fleet but not on improving the quality of their pilots and strategists. They are the only nation on earth which have been using air exercises as a source for feeling proud ... rather than using it for learning. Hence the results of Feb 27th 2019.
 

ziaulislam

ELITE MEMBER
Apr 22, 2010
14,729
10
13,919
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Above all, what were the IAF doing in all these exercises which they had with other air forces that had F-16's? For over a decade? They didn't learn a thing? Boasting all the time on this forum that they had figured the Viper out inside out? What a shameful misuse of their tax payers' monies. They are in serious need for capacity building of their personnel. They seem to spend much on their fleet but not on improving the quality of their pilots and strategists. They are the only nation on earth which have been using air exercises as a source for feeling proud ... rather than using it for learning. Hence the results of Feb 27th 2019.
you have to commend RAW and their lobbying
They understood the importance of f16s and didnt everything possible to block it and the rd93

What is most alarming is the glitches with mirages
 

CHI RULES

FULL MEMBER
Mar 23, 2015
1,855
5
1,543
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
If the economy picks up and we have the bread, then of course.
Please go for Golda Meir i.e to whom she idealized in case of her country defense. Whether you or other respected members accept it or not IAF is progressing aggressively and have learnt lesson from previous year skirmish. They were already piling up stocks regarding spares of SU30 going to increase availability of SU30. They have reportedly obtained better BVRS with near future Meteor/Rafael. It is upon PAF how it responds. Till Moody is there we may expect another insane move.
 

Rafi

ELITE MEMBER
Jul 23, 2010
10,909
11
17,774
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Cheers man not an Indian or sold out Pakistani I shall live here and die here. However what I asked is about thoughts of other members here not dumb to try to get a pro from PAF or a person involved in manufacturing. It is worthwhile to note that though not accurate yet some info always comes out there for comparison. I don't know why you are offended.
Bro, sorry if I sounded abit harsh was just trying to bring some levity to the discussion, you would not believe how many dms I get asking about various classified stuff. Any ways no hard feelings.
 

CHI RULES

FULL MEMBER
Mar 23, 2015
1,855
5
1,543
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
@Rafi please do not engage this online filth. Scumbag made an “honest” ID first but his degenerate upbringing forced him to make this fake one to satisfy his pitiful ego.
Rafi though a sensible member but responded ridiculously Yesterday regarding my post please take care of forum otherwise people like me who are here just to learn and have concerns regarding our country shall leave this forum. Hope you shall view my comments positively.

Bro, sorry if I sounded abit harsh was just trying to bring some levity to the discussion, you would not believe how many dms I get asking about various classified stuff. Any ways no hard feelings.
Thanks Sir you don't know my background and same from here. You have been a source of good info here but at times it feels that some discussions become rough here meanwhile publicly available data is even not discussed.
 

Rafi

ELITE MEMBER
Jul 23, 2010
10,909
11
17,774
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Rafi though a sensible member but responded ridiculously Yesterday regarding my post please take care of forum otherwise people like me who are here just to learn and have concerns regarding our country shall leave this forum. Hope you shall view my comments positively.


Thanks Sir you don't know my background and same from here. You have been a source of good info here but at times it feels that some discussions become rough here meanwhile publicly available data is even not discussed.
You are right of course, I assure you was meant in a humorous way, but did not come across as such.

Regarding info that is given, most of the time it is to reassure our own people about our capabilities, or warn the enemy about what we can do.
 

Salman876

FULL MEMBER
May 12, 2019
381
0
340
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
That was plan orginally two different countries hence word states in 1940 & acceptance of cabinet mission by PMLN but it was later changed in 1946 due to many reasons (primary bengali leaders wanted unity for their own sake)


On the topic..what was india doing for last 10 years PAF got the f16s in 2009..sleeping?

Second sat image anaylsis post balakot by third parties shows clearly what happened denying that has made IAF unprofessional in eyes of neutral observers. Recent release of end stage footage from H4s released by PAF doesnt help IAF either. It surely either a delibrate miss or wrong co ordinates by IAF

Third the fact that IAF had no AWAC coverage, no secure communication, no BVR superiority and no ability to use IFF system are serious short comings that led to mass causualities in the military operations (6 IAF members died)

In all it was serious and complete failure
Just claiming you shot an f16 that too by pinning it on abhi seems a cover up to begin with..PAF claims a su30 kill and has no evidence behind it but atleast they dont claim that an f7 shot down a su30.

In nutshell PER INDIAN AIRFORCE (this isnt me its your own airforce) almost for decade PAF had 5 superior fighter squardons with IAF caught napping...in a war IAF would have lost early stages really badly as F16s with 10 AWECS would have turkey shot all the IAF fighters..

IAF doesnt need 36 rafales it needs 100 and not tomorrow... yesterday

Both su 30 & mirages had radar issues so IAF need to go back to the drawing board to figure out what happened..
Astra isnt the solution if issue was radar lock..

2.4b for mirages down the drain..& now they wont get meteor..what a waste..mica wont cut it for BVR
Modern Air to Air combat has 4 main pillars:
1: BVR superiority
2: ECM
3: Coordination
4: Force Multipliers
IAF Failed at all.
1: IAF BVR was inferior to PAF BVR (R-77 < AAMRAM)
2: Their ECM failed (mig 21 shot down)
3: Coordination Failure (Mi 17 shot down)
4: No AWACS support at the time of need.
 

aliyusuf

FULL MEMBER
May 2, 2010
1,325
6
2,066
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
Modern Air to Air combat has 4 main pillars:
1: BVR superiority
2: ECM
3: Coordination
4: Force Multipliers
IAF Failed at all.
1: IAF BVR was inferior to PAF BVR (R-77 < AAMRAM)
2: Their ECM failed (mig 21 shot down)
3: Coordination Failure (Mi 17 shot down)
4: No AWACS support at the time of need.
Correction:
2: Their ECM failed (mig 21 shot down ... and their upgraded Mirage-2000Is bugged out due to radar malfunction) ... Jammed silly by our Thunders
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 1, Members: 0, Guests: 1)


Top Bottom