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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Zarvan

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J-16 is not for sale and will not come to PAF, same for J-11 and J-15. Cannot say for JH-7A.
There is no issue in their sale. Yes they are for sale and if we want they would come. Only thing which would make us want them is India going for F-18 BLOCK III for its Navy.
 

iLION12345_1

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J-11 and J-16 are not for sale at the moment but that can change. J-15 has no strings attached.
It can’t change unless Russia agrees, which they won’t because why would they let a flanker sale go through China when it could be going through them? That’s why PAF went to Russia when it was interested in SU35 in the first place. J-15 also has plenty of strings, but maybe it is exportable. It’s still a flanker, keep that in mind.
There is no issue in their sale. Yes they are for sale and if we want they would come. Only thing which would make us want them is India going for F-18 BLOCK III for its Navy.
They are not for sale and no they will not come. I will keep repeating this no matter how many times I must, it’s just sad that peoples personals beliefs are presented over facts on this forum.

If They were for sale, why would PAF approach Russia when it was interested in flankers? Russia has made it clear that they won’t miss out on million dollar flanker sales by letting it go through China. The only one with a possibility is J-15 and even that won’t be as easy to buy as a J-10.
 

siegecrossbow

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I don’t understand the fascination with J-15. Being a carrier borne aircraft it makes substantial sacrifices in terms of weight and flight performance wise is basically a watered down J-11B. Unless Pakistan is buying a carrier there is literally zero use for a J-15.
 

The Eagle

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If pocket allows then twin heavyweight definitely on cards , specially for Naval Role in future
Go Euro Fighter Typhoon team 😁
I don’t understand the fascination with J-15. Being a carrier borne aircraft it makes substantial sacrifices in terms of weight and flight performance wise is basically a watered down J-11B. Unless Pakistan is buying a carrier there is literally zero use for a J-15.
Actually, you are asking people to not to merely rely upon shape of it but consider the quality and capability. Actually, that's a flanker with two engine, two vertical stabilizers, big and that's it. Not everyone will be interested to consider the capability of an aircraft and then the availability as well.
 
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kursed

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I don’t understand the fascination with J-15. Being a carrier borne aircraft it makes substantial sacrifices in terms of weight and flight performance wise is basically a watered down J-11B. Unless Pakistan is buying a carrier there is literally zero use for a J-15.
Pakistani fascination is with twin-engine jets. You can strap two jet-engines on a kite and they'd want that too. =)
 

GriffinsRule

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If you want a shitty twin-engine behemoth, then you go for Su-27/30/35 family type. Get picked up on radar as far away as a jumbo jet and shot down by Tejas.

If you want a good twin-engined jet in service now, only Typhoon is a viable option. French and US options are off the table looks like so that leaves our broke *** nation with only one way forward ... wait for LO type from China/Turkey and get more loans to buy that 20years from now.
 

untitled

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If I had a nickle for everytime I heard conversation of J-11, J-15 & J-16 on [PDF], i'd have a Private Jet 24hrs on Standby.
If a Flanker were to be converted into a private business jet, will it's NATO codename be 'Banker'?

You can strap two jet-engines on a kite and they'd want that too. =)
Podracing could become real motor sport in Pakistan
 
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serenity

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If you want a shitty twin-engine behemoth, then you go for Su-27/30/35 family type. Get picked up on radar as far away as a jumbo jet and shot down by Tejas.

If you want a good twin-engined jet in service now, only Typhoon is a viable option. French and US options are off the table looks like so that leaves our broke *** nation with only one way forward ... wait for LO type from China/Turkey and get more loans to buy that 20years from now.
Hmm I think you discount the Flanker family too quickly here.

Twin engine fighters of 4th generation that are available include:

Flankers
F-18
F-15
Typhoon
Rafale

F-18 is weakest easily and is also optimal for navy role. F-15 is a dinosaur and the latest versions with the best equipment and weapons make it very powerful due to payload, range, and radar power and radar technology.

Typhoon has just got AESA like Rafale and most origin nations do not even use them with the new AESA. Those AESA are the absolute first radars these countries built. They are also relatively lower powered and fewer transmit receive modules. These nations also do not have the software sophistication and funding level that USA and China have. On top of these, Rafale's RBE AESA and EFT's CAESAr are first generation radars while F-15's latest ones are second to third generation level. J-16's is also China's first generation fighter AESA level along with J-10B's but at least the size and power is nearly twice that of EFT's CAESAr and more than twice the power and size of RBE.

F-15 is totally not accessible for Pakistan. Rafale also really isn't. EFT is a viable option but along with J-16.

Out of Flanker family only J-16 is capable of playing in this top league of 4th gen fighters. Su-35 is good but avionics, radar, and electronic defense and attack is not quite as good. The engines are much better though.

J-16 may have larger RCS than EFT but has longer range and likely has superior electronic attack and defense capabilities. If not then J-16D specializes in that role. J-16D + J-16 >> 2 x EFT with CAESAr. Carrying more missiles, has more internal energy and dedicated EW where EFT's missiles, detection, and efforts to attack and track will be pulled down and J-16s will be enhanced. Detection range should favor J-16s due to electronic attack version addition.

J-16 may not be available for export due to informal agreements with Russia not to export Chinese Flankers so maybe this isn't viable at all for PAF. In fact the range advantage is also not much use for PAF due to geography. It is not a naval fighter so for air to ship role isn't ideal at all due to how radar and electronic systems are optimized.

Indeed PAF's best option is to save all that money anyway and look towards the future of 5th generation combined with UCAV. These are much more effective per dollar spent.
 

tphuang

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Indeed PAF's best option is to save all that money anyway and look towards the future of 5th generation combined with UCAV. These are much more effective per dollar spent.
That's not how things work. There is a reason that China procured so many Su-30MKKs when J-10s, J-11Bs and JH-7A were all joining services. Even though Su-30 was behind J-10 and J-11B in air superiority role and worse than JH-7A in terms of attacking land and sea targets. Getting aircraft into your service allows your Air Force to train and develop new capabilities and tactics. It's very important for any modern Air Force to continually induct new aircraft with better capabilities to keep improving the skills of pilots and the tactics they use. These soft skills take years to develop. One cannot afford to take time off while waiting for the next generation aircraft.

At this point, PAF should not let future 5th generation aircraft procurement affect how many J-10Cs it will purchase. First, we do not know when J-35 will even enter service. And then, I'm sure any export will only happen after an Air Force version goes into service with WS-19 and matures after a couple of years. All of this could easily take another 10 years before the first delivery would happen. It would be a terrible idea for PAF to stand pat for that long.

J-16s to PAF will not happen as long as China has a good relationship with Russia. Ideally, PAF would also get an EW aircraft like what J-16D, but single engine aircraft may be too under powered for that role. So the best approach PAF can take is work with CAC to develop a more multi-role version of J-10 for itself. There is no reason the combination of JF-17 and J-10 cannot replace most of the Western aircraft in PAF over the next 10 years. While J-16 would give PAF a lot of capabilities and be a worthy adversary to Rafale, it's just not going to happen.

Also, Typhoons are a little overrated. The market has shown in the recent years that other air forces simply consider the current version of Rafale to be a more capable aircraft. EFT has failed in numerous contest vs F-15Es and Rafale over the past 15 years. Just take a look at how long Typhoon has stuck with its 90s era slotted array radar.
 

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