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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Shotgunner51

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We can’t get F-16s without major compromises, CPEC and nuclear program…. Are we willing to take that chance?
Putting geopolitical costs aside, the best way for PAF to acquire an ideal medium jet fleet is upgrading F-16 Block 52 to Viper standard with US supplies, which is definitely more superior to French tech aka Rafale in IAF. PAF crew know this platform well hence less training required, existing infra/arsenal can continue to service, it's the most cost effective option for PAF. South Korea, Taiwan and Greece are going for F-16V, Turkey has requested now awaiting US to give green light.

But chance of F-16V coming to PAF is slim for known reasons, that's why PAF is pursuing a more costly option i.e. seeking an entirely new medium jet platform other than F-16. It's gonna be either a single hi-thrust engine bird like J-10C, or twin-medium engine birds like EFT, Mig-29/35, F-18 (unlikely since it's an US jet). I don't know which one is coming to PAF, but here is an opinion piece on F-16V vs J-10C:

 
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SQ8

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When was the last time a Pakistani leader has toured a nation outside the US, UK, UAE & Saudi Arabia? Diplomatic and economic engagement is key to winning friends and unfortunately, Pakistan’s foreign ministry can’t seem to understand there’s a world outside the above mentioned countries.
They wouldn’t know what to do in those countries nor are they intellectually equipped to deal with those states let alone the world. The Ambassador to Saudi Arabia spent a month stealing ideas from expats to present to IK to shine his own boots so imagine what these people actually could ever achieve. Pakistani bureaucracy is bunch of incompetent sycophants at best.
 

Super Falcon

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Care to write in full and understandable sentences? Come on man, you call yourself an Elite member and just put together some scraps of words assuming you know better?!!

No, you are guessing at best and if you say "im not assuming what j 10 uses every one knows global fact is russian engines" - a sentence I would translate into: "I am m not assuming what engine the J-10 uses since every one knows it is a global fact it is a Russian engine!" then it is wrong. Yes, the older J-10A and B are using Russian AL-31FN but again since 2019 NO J-10C was built with it and therefore it is plain stupid to think any Pakistani version would again use Russian engines.

Therefore Yes, you are assuming, but you are assuming BS since it fits your agenda :crazy: ... show me any since-2019 built J-10C using a Russian engine? And even more give proof that the "Ws 10 has not matured yet either"!
Behave your self having a knowledge dosent mean you behave like insulting others

As far as elite member is concerned i have earned it here which sorry to say it takes u decades
 

Super Falcon

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Right now our focus should be on getting J-10 C from China. If somehow we manage to get J-16 also it would be great. As for USA. What past 70 years have told me is that no matter what USA can't afford to ignore us for long. Sooner or later some incident or some world event will happen any where and USA will again need us and will come in line again. But we need to reduce our dependency on US made weapons as much as possible.
Say no to usa weapons they are blackmailing tools
 

Deino

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Behave your self having a knowledge dosent mean you behave like insulting others

As far as elite member is concerned i have earned it here which sorry to say it takes u decades

But it seems your reputation is lost right after the last pages even more since "Elite Member" is not a title earned by the quality of post, but simply by the number!

Just to quote a friend who wants to remain anonymous:

If I make a new member and posted nothing else except screengrabs from Angelina Jolie in Original Sin I would make an Elite member after 5000 posts.
 
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KaiserX

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PAF IS NOT WILL NOT EVER GET ANY ANY NEW F16VS WHAT SO EVER. WITH THE POLITICAL CLIMATE EVEN V UPGRADES ARE OUT OF QUESTION.

PAF is getting 40 or so J10CPs. Possibly more follow up orders (upto 55-60). Beyond that PAF will go for either J35 or J20, in the future. PAF has abundance of capability in the 200+ JF17B3s and 75 F16s it operates. The J10CPs/JXX will augment this as force multipliers.

If and when PAF goes for JXX it will be very limited orders (similar to the J10CP). J10s introduction into the PAF makes it more likely that the PAF is eying 2-3 squadrons of J20 especially because its a far more mature platform. All these things once again will come to fruitation by 2030 none of this is happening overnight.

Nothing more nothing less. Eventually AZM will replace all F16s and most of early JF17s post 2030 onwards.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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When was the last time a Pakistani leader has toured a nation outside the US, UK, UAE & Saudi Arabia? Diplomatic and economic engagement is key to winning friends and unfortunately, Pakistan’s foreign ministry can’t seem to understand there’s a world outside the above mentioned countries.
Yep, but even when we tour leaders, we never do any prep work in advance.

Instead of parking money in real estate, what if our leaders and elite invested in those countries? Imagine the headlines, "Pakistani businessmen invest $3 billion in Canada" or "Pakistani businesses to add 10,000 jobs to Sweden" and so on. I'm talking about the money leaving Pakistan; we can't even finesse the corruption in favour of our national interests.

We have all these people who look like liberal progressives, yet they can't articulate a single liberal concept. If they do, it's always against Pakistan. Imagine coaching a few of these people into becoming academics, journalists, and social commentators in Sweden? They can finesse the Swedish population to think along our lines (albeit over a 10-15-year period).

Pakistani leadership is functionally inept at everything it does. Our dictators can't do dictatorships properly, our democrats can't do the democracy right, our maulvis can't do Islam right, our liberals can't do liberalism right. We Pakistanis are a nation of South Park characters.
 

Falcon26

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Yep, but even when we tour leaders, we never do any prep work in advance.

Instead of parking money in real estate, what if our leaders and elite invested in those countries? Imagine the headlines, "Pakistani businessmen invest $3 billion in Canada" or "Pakistani businesses to add 10,000 jobs to Sweden" and so on. I'm talking about the money leaving Pakistan; we can't even finesse the corruption in favour of our national interests.

We have all these people who look like liberal progressives, yet they can't articulate a single liberal concept. If they do, it's always against Pakistan. Imagine coaching a few of these people into becoming academics, journalists, and social commentators in Sweden? They can finesse the Swedish population to think along our lines (albeit over a 10-15-year period).

Pakistani leadership is functionally inept at everything it does. Our dictators can't do dictatorships properly, our democrats can't do the democracy right, our maulvis can't do Islam right, our liberals can't do liberalism right. We Pakistanis are a nation of South Park characters.
Someone needs to create a wallpaper of this.Utterly sad but true.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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Someone needs to create a wallpaper of this.Utterly sad but true.
I'll give you a super simple example.

Why haven't we sent IK to talk about Shaukat Khanum? We can use IK's experience in two ways.

First, we can present it as an example of charitable giving in the absence of government spending. The conservative states in the U.S. would love to hear about it.

Second, IK can talk about how a lack of gov't spending in health forced him to create SK, and that as PM, he's trying his best to change that in Pakistan. He can use that story in Sweden, Canada, France, etc, but then say how decades of institutional corruption are hard to overcome. He can give a solution: "Make Pakistan stronger so that it can overcome this corruption." Westerners will ask, "what does 'stronger Pakistan' mean?" That's when IK says, "we're a democracy that's surrounded by fanatics, which forces us to divert resources to our military..."

This is just napkin stuff, but there's a way to build narratives with what we got. Even if IK loses, we can create a story out of the next guy (or gal). Everyone has a story. The problem is, we Pakistanis aren't the best storytellers. Our "storytelling" is drama room gossip.

We can learn a few lessons from India, for example. We can manufacture an "image" of Pakistan. It takes time and investment, but with the right focus, it's doable.
 
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Putting geopolitical costs aside, the best way for PAF to acquire an ideal medium jet fleet is upgrading F-16 Block 52 to Viper standard with US supplies, which is definitely more superior to French tech aka Rafale in IAF. PAF crew know this platform well hence less training required, existing infra/arsenal can continue to service, it's the most cost effective option for PAF. South Korea, Taiwan and Greece are going for F-16V, Turkey has requested now awaiting US to give green light.

But chance of F-16V coming to PAF is slim for known reasons, that's why PAF is pursuing a more costly option i.e. seeking an entirely new medium jet platform other than F-16. It's gonna be either a single hi-thrust engine bird like J-10C, or twin-medium engine birds like EFT, Mig-29/35, F-18 (unlikely since it's an US jet). I don't know which one is coming to PAF, but here is an opinion piece on F-16V vs J-10C:

Pakistan has a poor economic condition and most of the defence budget goes to the army. I think in this scenario, Pakistan should keep producing more and more Jf-17s and bring more improvements to the JF-17 MRCA.
 

GriffinsRule

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Yes, it's all speculation. There are no J10C. So once the fighters land, please stay off the topic too. Bookmark this post, if you must. =)
Easy copout from you. Regardless if there is any J-10 deal or not, you are conveniently skipping over the other questions.
 

Basel

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True, Gripen (one F404/414) and JFT (one RD93) are both single medium-thrust engine config, it's baffling to see people calling for PAF to operate two platforms in the same exact category of light fighter.

Yes there are non-US options for medium-thrust engine, like RD93 we all know very well, China's WS-13 (as a backup of RD93, and used in Chinese UAV's), EJ200 (two of these installed on EFT), M88 (two of these installed on Rafale), whether they can be installed on Gripen is another issue.
EJ-200 is compact engine it most probably will fit in JAS-39, the same engine is also available for JFT.
 

kursed

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Easy copout from you. Regardless if there is any J-10 deal or not, you are conveniently skipping over the other questions.
You’re comparing JF and J10C EW systems as if you actually know their performance and then drawing conclusions. Answering to these questions would mean nothing. In any case, feel free to check for answers once the birds land. :)
 

GriffinsRule

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You’re comparing JF and J10C EW systems as if you actually know their performance and then drawing conclusions. Answering to these questions would mean nothing. In any case, feel free to check for answers once the birds land. :)
I'm asking you since you made the comparison.
 

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