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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Dreamer.

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2. Pakistan would not have gotten PL-15 (for JF-17), without the J10C deal.
What is the reason for this? Did china simply refuse to sell unless pakistan also buys J-10? Or were there other issues such as cost of integration etc.
 

denel

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What is the reason for this? Did china simply refuse to sell unless pakistan also buys J-10? Or were there other issues such as cost of integration etc.
There is a lot of guessing going on. Frankly, between Blk 3 vs J10c - there is already so much synergy already in progress. I stand by my earlier assessment, we will continue to see evolution of JF17 into Blk4 and Blk5. It is just not a matter of buy = there is an entire integration, maintenance, parts, systems to name a few for which there is no support structure in existent. Between the time for procurement to having it in service will take approx 3-5 years. We have seen this already with Jf17 and even as we speak it is over 10yrs now we are yet to see a full engine overhaul maintenance facility for the 93 engine. With J10c - there are too many new systems to master and lay the ground work for let alone have pilots ready.

My 2cents; the best counter to the rafael are 2 options ; one is f16v that is an impossible pipe dream; other is Gripen - but then again the second option becomes mute if blk4/5 will continue forward to enhance capabilities.
 

araz

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SAAB made a calculated business decision and they lost - there is a saying - a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush - and SAAB should have ran with what they had at the time. Now, they have nothing as India will never buy the Gripen - no matter what. India will never buy the GlobalEye or the Gripen and SAAB has nothing else to offer India.

Pakistan is the "model" customer for SAAB - what this shows is a company that simply does not understand its target customers at all by sidelining Pakistan for India ...
There may have been other complications. The engine of the Gripen was US origin and even with the Volvo engine they are licence building it with US components. The US would not have allowed sale of a fighter which could compete with their prospective sale of the 16s. So PAF was shown the door out of necessity. I dont think PAF actually wanted to buy the Gripen but would/??did evaluate it to see where the JFT stood vis a vis the Gripen. I think this paid off. However I do think the PAF should have gotten the Rafale instead of the F16. Whether we could afford it is another thing.
A
 

GriffinsRule

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1. J10C will come with a Chinese engine, not Russian.
2. Pakistan would not have gotten PL-15 (for JF-17), without the J10C deal.
3. The aircraft is an entirely different beast in terms of EW and flight performance vs JF-17.
4. PAF needed an interim fighter to offset the advantage Rafael + Meteor combination would give to IAF.
5. J10C is one of the most worked at systems within PLAAF, it's an established platform with extensive after-sales support capacity within China.
6. The platform is almost guaranteed to see immediate software and avionics updates over the course of its life cycle, to upgrade the jet's performance as it starts operating in this corner of the world.
7. PAF pilots are already in China getting trained on the aircraft so we'd see the first ferry flights back home within the first couple of months of 2022.
2. Why is that? And what evidence do ppl have that are proclaiming this as truth? So on one hand Pakistan can buy ANYTHING from China, just ask for it. On the other, you can't buy a missile for a joint program unless forced to spend billions on a new platform? I call bullshit on this claim.

3. What is entirely different in EW between J-10 and Block III? Pure speculation here.

4. There is such thing as an interim fighter if you buy it in large numbers and it stays in service for 40years. And the "advantage" is not widespread or meaningful in a fullscale conflict, given how few airframes they have.

5/6. Pointless as this is standard for every country or company selling billions of dollars worth of high tech machines. Its not a point in favor of J-10 as it's not exclusive to it. (Oh wait, maybe we will need to buy X, Y and Z in the future to ensure we get those upgrades using the same logic as in your second bullet point.

7. Heresay again.
 

KaiserX

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I dont understand why most members here continue to claim that Chinese fighter jet engine program is NOT MATURE. The Chinese have not fielded Russian engines on any of their modern fighters since the last 90s. Even US DOD report sheds light that in many ways the Chinese have surpassed the Russians EVEN IN ENGINE TECHNOLOGY, forget avionics (Id rank China atleast a decade ahead of avoinics compared to ruskies) and fast catching up to America in avionics/electronic capabilities.

That is a downright lie. The j20 is the epitome of a modern world class 5th generation fighter. In many ways more modern/capable than the F22 raptor itself (developed in the 80s/late 90s avionics). More J20s are in service (150) compared to the F22 (120) and that to in a quicker timeframe (12 years), with production ramping up for J35 as well... ALL POWERED BY LATEST CHINESE ENGINES. If that is not significant scientific advancement unseen ever in history then IDK what is.

China has been fielding world class indiginous engines since the early 2000s. Pakistani J10CPs will come with CHINESE ENGINES. WS-10 was always known to be a backup for the RD93 incase the russians were not willing to sell them. The Chinese are focusing on the WS-15/WS-19 series at this point WHICH WILL POWER THE PLAAFS AND MOST LIKELY PAFs 5th GENERATION FIGHTERS.

These items especially with regards to Chinese engines have been discussed to death in previous threads for almost decades at this point.
 

denel

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I dont understand why most members here continue to claim that Chinese fighter jet engine program is NOT MATURE. The Chinese have not fielded Russian engines on any of their modern fighters since the last 90s. Even US DOD report sheds light that in many ways the Chinese have surpassed the Russians EVEN IN ENGINE TECHNOLOGY, forget avionics (Id rank China atleast a decade ahead of avoinics compared to ruskies) and fast catching up to America in avionics/electronic capabilities.

That is a downright lie. The j20 is the epitome of a modern world class 5th generation fighter. In many ways more modern/capable than the F22 raptor itself (developed in the 80s/late 90s avionics). More J20s are in service (150) compared to the F22 (120) and that to in a quicker timeframe (12 years), with production ramping up for J35 as well... ALL POWERED BY LATEST CHINESE ENGINES. If that is not significant scientific advancement unseen ever in history then IDK what is.

China has been fielding world class indiginous engines since the early 2000s. Pakistani J10CPs will come with CHINESE ENGINES. WS-10 was always known to be a backup for the RD93 incase the russians were not willing to sell them. The Chinese are focusing on the WS-15/WS-19 series at this point WHICH WILL POWER THE PLAAFS AND MOST LIKELY PAFs 5th GENERATION FIGHTERS.

These items especially with regards to Chinese engines have been discussed to death in previous threads for almost decades at this point.
Bro.... calm down - MTBF is very low. Give them at least a decade or two to be as good as russians first.
 

kursed

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2. Why is that? And what evidence do ppl have that are proclaiming this as truth? So on one hand Pakistan can buy ANYTHING from China, just ask for it. On the other, you can't buy a missile for a joint program unless forced to spend billions on a new platform? I call bullshit on this claim.

3. What is entirely different in EW between J-10 and Block III? Pure speculation here.

4. There is such thing as an interim fighter if you buy it in large numbers and it stays in service for 40years. And the "advantage" is not widespread or meaningful in a fullscale conflict, given how few airframes they have.

5/6. Pointless as this is standard for every country or company selling billions of dollars worth of high tech machines. Its not a point in favor of J-10 as it's not exclusive to it. (Oh wait, maybe we will need to buy X, Y and Z in the future to ensure we get those upgrades using the same logic as in your second bullet point.

7. Heresay again.
Yes, it's all speculation. There are no J10C. So once the fighters land, please stay off the topic too. Bookmark this post, if you must. =)
 

jupiter2007

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no its not . we need j-31 and j20 for such job
Every move has to be made based on our enemy and their plans. It’s like playing game of chess.
We don’t have buckets load of money to waste. PAF will make the required adjustments but at the same time they don’t want give enemy an opportunity to buy some thing that we cannot match.
We need something for stopgap until AZM project is ready and J-10 make sense at this time.
We can’t get F-16s without major compromises, CPEC and nuclear program…. Are we willing to take that chance?
 

Shotgunner51

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JAS 39 can have European engine if customer is ready to the bill, but why would PAF want that plane when they have JFT in similar category.
True, Gripen (one F404/414) and JFT (one RD93) are both single medium-thrust engine config, it's baffling to see people calling for PAF to operate two platforms in the same exact category of light fighter.

Yes there are non-US options for medium-thrust engine, like RD93 we all know very well, China's WS-13 (as a backup of RD93, and used in Chinese UAV's), EJ200 (two of these installed on EFT), M88 (two of these installed on Rafale), whether they can be installed on Gripen is another issue.
 
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JawadKKhan

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My 2cents; the best counter to the rafael are 2 options ; one is f16v that is an impossible pipe dream; other is Gripen - but then again the second option becomes mute if blk4/5 will continue forward to enhance capabilities.
Pak won't get F-16V at all. No gripen as well, because of its american components. Political situation does not allow it and secondly, we suffered greatly when F-16s were denied in 90's. Actually it was blessing in disguise, the JF-17 program actually got life because of it.
J10C, F-16blk 52s, JF-17 block III (with pl-15s & pl-10s) already a deadly air fleet. Further efforts should only be made towards Project AZM or JF periodic block upgrades.
 

BRAVO_

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pakistan needs something like J31 or J20, for the time being J20 is seems far but plan B go for J31

 

Falcon26

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tbh I think Saab was always open to working with Pakistan. The real blocker is Sweden's politics. For example, in 1970, Saab was on the verge of selling us Saab 105s with local manufacturing. However, our issues in East Pakistan gave the Swedish political scene a reason to torpedo the deal. Similarly, efforts to market the Saab Viggin to Pakistan also went down the hill due to Swedish politics. I think Sweden's public perception of us is pretty bad, and we didn't do as much as we should have to win over Swedish politicians to our favour. Admittedly (as a PPP hater), the closest we got was with Benazir Bhutto, but at that time (1990s), the US was the real blocker.

We basically need '80s IK to finesse the situation for us.
When was the last time a Pakistani leader has toured a nation outside the US, UK, UAE & Saudi Arabia? Diplomatic and economic engagement is key to winning friends and unfortunately, Pakistan’s foreign ministry can’t seem to understand there’s a world outside the above mentioned countries.
 

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