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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

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If J-10 C numbers remain only at 36 then yes it would mainly be used for Air to Air role. But if the number increases then yes it would be used for strikes.

Everything is going according to schedule. Inducting a new plane whether J-10 C or some other jet was always part of the plan. It didn't happened a year or two ago that we realized that oops we need a new plane. The plan for J-10 C was made several years ago.
The PAF never bought a new platform only to stick to 36 planes.

If not for Pressler, the PAF was looking to have 150 F-16s (read it here).

Otherwise, every fighter bought on Pakistan's dime came with a procurement plan for at least 90 units:
  • F-6 was ~180 units
  • Mirage III/5 was ~90 units (before the used planes in the 1990s)
  • A-7 Corsair II plan was 110 units
  • F-16 plan was ~100 units plus an option for 50 more (pre-Pressler)
  • JF-17 was 150-200 units
If the J-10CE is coming, the PAF will not stop at 36 aircraft. It will stretch it to at least 90 units and, possibly, push it up to 150 if the funds allow it. If you actually speak to any PAF person who had been involved in the procurement process, they'll tell you this point.

This is a big reason why they didn't push for the Typhoon, Rafale or Su-35. It wasn't that they couldn't afford to acquire 1 or 2 squadrons, but to get the most out of the platform, you need it in numbers: 90+. But at that scale, not every fighter is feasible enough to acquire.
 
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Akh1112

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So in brief, we had deficiency in capability but somehow JF-17 might have continued to work. As the requirement was always there, we had done work and had eyes on J-10C to boost our strength and after 26th-27th Feb 19 episodes, any reluctancy vanished.

I feel JF-17 case is similar to our Shaheen missiles. We bluffed Shaheen 2 had 2500km range and it worked only to later reveal it was actually 1500km when the threat was neautralized with Shaheen 3. (Ha! In your face India!!). JF-17 is not a bad aircraft, but a light-weight aircraft has its limitations.

P.S: An indigenous radar for aircrafts is indeed in the works. And I think we got ToT for KLJ 7-A. (btw ToT is a very loose term).
No, we got licence production of it
 

Zarvan

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The PAF never bought a new platform only to stick to 36 planes.

If not for Pressler, the PAF was looking to have 150 F-16s (read it here).

Otherwise, every fighter bought on Pakistan's dime came with a procurement plan for at least 90 units:
  • F-6 was ~180 units
  • Mirage III/5 was ~90 units (before the used planes in the 1990s)
  • A-7 Corsair II plan was 110 units
  • F-16 plan was ~100 units plus an option for 50 more (pre-Pressler)
  • JF-17 was 150-200 units
If the J-10CE is coming, the PAF will not stop at 36 aircraft. It will stretch it to at least 90 units and, possibly, push it up to 150 if the funds allow it. If you actually speak to any PAF person who had been involved in the procurement process, they'll tell you this point.

This is a big reason why they didn't push for the Typhoon, Rafale or Su-35. It wasn't that they couldn't afford to acquire 1 or 2 squadrons, but to get the most out of the platform, you need it in numbers: 90+. But at that scale, not every fighter is feasible enough to acquire.
That is good to hear. That we would go for at least 100 J-10 C.
 

Tariq Habib Afridi

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Spot on.

The PAF will not use the J-10CE for strike.

Rather, the J-10CE will shore up our air-to-air capabilities from an offensive standpoint. The way we used the F-16s in Swift Retort, the PAF needs more of that type of fighter to build up its offensive air capability.

As the PAF cannot get F-16s, the PAF sees the J-10CE as the next best option.

So, in future Swift Retort-type scenarios, the PAF will send Mirages and JF-17s to carry SOWs and PGBs, while the F-16 and J-10CE interdict enemy fighters. The PAF is certainly investing in SOW for the JF-17 -- e.g., REK-III and, potentially, the Ra'ad 2. But the JF-17 will share the attack role with the Mirages.

In the future, the PAF would want an incredibly strong offensive capability through a combination of J-10CE and AZM. The two would operate together. That said, AZM would likely be a multi-role asset too, especially for the maritime ops environment (where its size will help for range and endurance).

IMO, the PAF's force goal is likely 90+ AZM and 150 J-10CE.

I know it sounds like a lot of J-10CEs, but remember, the PAF (on paper) wanted 150 F-16s.

Prior to the F-16s, the PAF wanted 110 A-7 Corsair IIs, but squarely for the attack role. The U.S. said no because (1) it wanted to scuttle our nuclear program and (2) the risk of the PAF using the A-7 as a nuclear delivery platform. If not for a lack of cash, the PAF might have wanted both the F-16 and A-7 for a killer offensive combination.

The AZM and J-10CE combo would echo that original idea.
I have only one question. If the JF 17 block 3 has aesa radar and PL-15 same as the J-10CE then why people here ignore JF-17 B3 for the air to air role while i understand the offensive thing due to J10 CE longer range. But still i think it will be better than F-16 in air to air role as we have a shorter range AAM for f16 and also have pesa? Another question is do we have A to G missiles for F-16? Can we use F-16 for strike role?
 

Zarvan

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I have only one question. If the JF 17 block 3 has aesa radar and PL-15 same as the J-10CE then why people here ignore JF-17 B3 for the air to air role while i understand the offensive thing due to J10 CE longer range. But still i think it will be better than F-16 in air to air role as we have a shorter range AAM for f16 and also have pesa? Another question is do we have A to G missiles for F-16? Can we use F-16 for strike role?
JF-17 has AESA radar and yes PL 15. But J-10 C as you can see is way bigger. Plus PL 15 is a huge missile. Therefore although Block III will carry PL 15 but it would slightly reduce its maneuverability. As for J-10 C that is not the case. Plus J-10 C can carry them on dual racks. And finally J-10 C is coming for both Air to Air and Air to ground role.
With the new sanctions in place, I am not sure why are you folks still taking any news of 'new' F-16s seriously. I mean, truly - how?
First of all because news is coming from those who are part of Armed Forces or were part of Armed Forces. Plus same people also told about J-10 CE. If you didn't notice even J-10 C news was being rejected by many until few months ago and then J-10 C came. Although what I believe that western platform which some people keep mentioning here could be from Europe. Also when it comes to USA Pakistan relations anything could change anytime.
 

iLION12345_1

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I have only one question. If the JF 17 block 3 has aesa radar and PL-15 same as the J-10CE then why people here ignore JF-17 B3 for the air to air role while i understand the offensive thing due to J10 CE longer range. But still i think it will be better than F-16 in air to air role as we have a shorter range AAM for f16 and also have pesa? Another question is do we have A to G missiles for F-16? Can we use F-16 for strike role?
All AESA Radars are not made the same, the J-10C/Ps AESA will be much much larger than the ones in JF-17, giving it a lot more capability. A missiles range can be limited by its radar, and though the PL-15 absolutely doesn’t have a 200-300 KM range as claimed (impossible for the size imo). It’s definitely 150+ KM, making it very long range.
At some range the JF-17s radar will not be as potent at spotting, identifying and tracking targets as the J-10Cs. There’s also other things like SAR (Synthetic aperture Radar) resolution that can be improved with larger radars. For the JFs radar it’s 1m^2 (which is “good” for a light fighter, but compared to something like an EF typhoon which has 025m^2 its 4 times weaker.)
The AESA in the JF is rather limited when it comes to AESAs on the account of its size (Not that the Elta 2052 in the similar sized Tejas is that much better) but just the fact that is has it is an AESA is a major boost over the current PESA in it. If we go off just the brochures for the LKF601E and KLJ-7A then chinese AESA radars aren’t anything special, I hope this doesn’t hold true with the larger ones too.

As for the F-16s radar; just because it’s a PESA doesn’t instantly mean it’s worst than an AESA.
Larger, more powerful or newer PESAs can definitely be more capable than smaller, less powerful or older AESAs. As an example, the PESA in Russian SU30MXX series (including the MKi) is likely more capable than the AESA in JF-17 on account of its massive size and power intake/output.
Similarly, All of PAFs F-16s (barring the last 13 purchased from Jordan) have been upgraded with AN/APG 68 V(9) Radars. The same which was standard on block 52+. While it’s a PESA radar, it’s a very good PESA radar, also Likely better than the one in the Jf-17 block 3.
However the missile range will matter here now, as the PL-15 definitely has a longer range than the AIM120C5. So it does seem like the JF Block 3 will outrange the PAFs F-16s at least in BVR capability, The actual performance of the missile remains to be seen, the AIM120 series are battle proven and extremely reliable, I don’t doubt Chinese missile tech either though, so I hope it proves similarly reliable for the PAF.

As for F-16 in A2G. It can surely carry Bombs with REKs (JDAMS) and PAF has AGM-65 Maverick missiles. Though I don’t know if Pakistan has HARM, online it says they do but I’m not sure. The Harpoon Block II AShM Pakistan bought are with the navy on OHP so I strongly assume there’s none with the PAF. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) or @Akh1112 might know a bit more.
Regardless, it will always stay in A2A role for PAF. That’s why there isn’t much discussion or purchases for it regarding A-2-G, but it has carried out many strikes on Taliban in the WoT using bombs.
 

HRK

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I am obliged to then ask what really is the need for J10 if at all that we are in so much of A HURRY TO induct it.
I might be totally wrong but for me IF J-10 is coming then its is coming as backup of F-16 rather as the replacement of Mirage 3/5 in PAF.

My reasons to believe this are

- J-10s were available to us since 2005 but we were not opting for it

- It is officially confirmed that Mirage jet fleet is getting overhauled which simply mean after overhaul they will operate for at least one last decade.

- PAF might be expecting another round of sanctions by USA which may effect F-16 operations similar to the decade of 90.

We must keep in mind we are getting denied for used F-16, C-130 and AH-1Z Gunships
 

m52k85

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Otherwise, every fighter bought on Pakistan's dime came with a procurement plan for at least 90 units:
  • F-6 was ~180 units
  • Mirage III/5 was ~90 units (before the used planes in the 1990s)
  • A-7 Corsair II plan was 110 units
  • F-16 plan was ~100 units plus an option for 50 more (pre-Pressler)
  • JF-17 was 150-200 units
Nanchang A-5? F-104?


@iLION12345_1 and @Tariq Habib Afridi our F-16s and Blk 1 and 2 JFs dont have PESA, they have Pulse Doppler (PD) radars. PESAs are generally thought to sit between PD and AESA, the west has for the large part skipped PESA and directly moved to AESA. Russia has given PESA the most attention.
 
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Akh1112

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AN/APG 68v9 is a PESA ?
No
All AESA Radars are not made the same, the J-10C/Ps AESA will be much much larger than the ones in JF-17, giving it a lot more capability. A missiles range can be limited by its radar, and though the PL-15 absolutely doesn’t have a 200-300 KM range as claimed (impossible for the size imo). It’s definitely 150+ KM, making it very long range.
At some range the JF-17s radar will not be as potent at spotting, identifying and tracking targets as the J-10Cs. There’s also other things like SAR (Synthetic aperture Radar) resolution that can be improved with larger radars. For the JFs radar it’s 1m^2 (which is “good” for a light fighter, but compared to something like an EF typhoon which has 025m^2 its 4 times weaker.)
The AESA in the JF is rather limited when it comes to AESAs on the account of its size (Not that the Elta 2052 in the similar sized Tejas is that much better) but just the fact that is has it is an AESA is a major boost over the current PESA in it. If we go off just the brochures for the LKF601E and KLJ-7A then chinese AESA radars aren’t anything special, I hope this doesn’t hold true with the larger ones too.

As for the F-16s radar; just because it’s a PESA doesn’t instantly mean it’s worst than an AESA.
Larger, more powerful or newer PESAs can definitely be more capable than smaller, less powerful or older AESAs. As an example, the PESA in Russian SU30MXX series (including the MKi) is likely more capable than the AESA in JF-17 on account of its massive size and power intake/output.
Similarly, All of PAFs F-16s (barring the last 13 purchased from Jordan) have been upgraded with AN/APG 68 V(9) Radars. The same which was standard on block 52+. While it’s a PESA radar, it’s a very good PESA radar, also Likely better than the one in the Jf-17 block 3.
However the missile range will matter here now, as the PL-15 definitely has a longer range than the AIM120C5. So it does seem like the JF Block 3 will outrange the PAFs F-16s at least in BVR capability, The actual performance of the missile remains to be seen, the AIM120 series are battle proven and extremely reliable, I don’t doubt Chinese missile tech either though, so I hope it proves similarly reliable for the PAF.

As for F-16 in A2G. It can surely carry Bombs with REKs (JDAMS) and PAF has AGM-65 Maverick missiles. Though I don’t know if Pakistan has HARM, online it says they do but I’m not sure. The Harpoon Block II AShM Pakistan bought are with the navy on OHP so I strongly assume there’s none with the PAF. @Bilal Khan (Quwa) or @Akh1112 might know a bit more.
Regardless, it will always stay in A2A role for PAF. That’s why there isn’t much discussion or purchases for it regarding A-2-G, but it has carried out many strikes on Taliban in the WoT using bombs.
harpoons are limited to ohp and p3’s, you need a pylon adapter to have them work on f16s.
 

iLION12345_1

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Nanchang A-5? F-104?


@iLION12345_1 and @Tariq Habib Afridi our F-16s and Blk 1 and 2 JFs dont have PESA, they have Pulse Doppler (PD) radars. PESAs are generally thought to sit between PD and AESA, the west has for the large part skipped PESA and directly moved to AESA. Russia has given PESA the most attention.
Yep, my bad, I was mistakenly putting PD and PESAs under the same name. Thanks.

AN/APG-68v9 is a PESA?
It’s a Pulse Doppler radar as mentioned above.
 

iLION12345_1

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Nanchang A-5? F-104?


@iLION12345_1 and @Tariq Habib Afridi our F-16s and Blk 1 and 2 JFs dont have PESA, they have Pulse Doppler (PD) radars. PESAs are generally thought to sit between PD and AESA, the west has for the large part skipped PESA and directly moved to AESA. Russia has given PESA the most attention.
A-5 was the ground attack aircraft analogous to the F-6 (A-5 was based on F-6 itself). PAF operated a large amount of F-6, such a large number of ground attack planes isn’t needed as they’re only for a specific role.

F-104 was rather unfit for PAF needs in general, it was a high-altitude interceptor made for US/NATO countries to use against Soviet strategic bombers.
Plus operating large numbers of those instead of F-86 wouldn’t make sense in general given the operating costs and safety record. I don’t know much about the history of its procurement but it was more of a symbolic thing in my book. At most maybe a force multiplier.
 

untitled

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It’s a Pulse Doppler radar as mentioned above.
There are a few Pakistani videos floating around on the internet making such a claim that the current verions of Block 52 level F16s have PESA radars. I think they are mistakingly under the assumption that since the F16s (atleast those in US good books) will get AESA upgrades, they must have be currently equiped with PESAs
 

iLION12345_1

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There are a few Pakistani videos floating around on the internet making such a claim that the current verions of Block 52 level F16s have PESA radars. I think they are mistakingly under the assumption that since the F16s (atleast those in US good books) will get AESA upgrades, they must have be currently equiped with PESAs
The AESA on the F-16 only started with Block 60 (which was UAE specific) and for the others from Block 70/72 IIRC. Yes Some countries are upgrading their aircraft with the F-16V package to get them AESAs among other things. Turkey is also working on an AESA to upgrade its F-16s with it. I wonder if that is also an option for Pakistan someday.
 

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