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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Zarvan

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Good Morning.... Just logged in and saw shopping 🛒 is still empty... You guys still unable to finalize.
Pick one item only from East shelf.... Coz. You are not allowed to buy any thing from West Shelf. 😕
In case you failed to notice Mr Taimi Khan said J-10 C are ready to be delivered. Delay is on our side as we are getting our infrastructure ready. Mr Taimi Khan is also the same guy who broke the news of WING LONG II. So please J-10 C is confirmed thing. The question now remains on the system from west.
Has J-10 been tested in China or Pakistan to carry all the arsenal that Mirages are capable of carrying ? And since J-10 carries advanced avionics than Mirages, has new upgraded weaponry (A-2-G) been decided for J-10 since some Mirage weaponry could be outdated or slated for upgrades.
That is great question. Although what I know is J-10 were ordered long also we had access to J-10 for really long time. So we could have gotten all the needed weapons integrated with them plus radar and avionics which we require. J-10 C in my opinion would be truly multirole jet for us as it would perform both Air to Air and Air to Ground roles. Still experts could tell details.

@Tipu7
 

NA71

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In case you failed to notice Mr Taimi Khan said J-10 C are ready to be delivered. Delay is on our side as we are getting our infrastructure ready. Mr Taimi Khan is also the same guy who broke the news of WING LONG II. So please J-10 C is confirmed thing. The question now remains on the system from west.
Boss muaf kar do.... Really sorry I failed.

I also mentioned in some post that... Remember a word "Decoy"
 

Akh1112

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1) No F-16 are coming, used or new, unless the US gives permission. Jordan is currently upgrading its F-16s and not selling them. If they do plan to sell them. We’d still need US permission to buy them. And then we’d need US permission to upgrade those F-16s to be relevant, for which we would need to buy upgrade packages from the US.
2) J-10C simply cannot replace mirage on 1:1 Ratio, too many aircraft. Will not happen. Even if they are coming.
3) yes they will.
4) No they’re not, only 30 new aircraft ordered so far and 20 older ones to be upgraded.
5) Block 4 is a possibility if PAF thinks it needs it, the block 1s will need to be retired before Azm goes online. I think a single engine 5th Gen is a possibility too, maybe a foreign one, but there’s literally one option in the world right now, which recently got unveiled. maybe more will come, but there’s also no projects currently. Though it makes sense that PAF will have two 5th gens, one for multi-role (single engine) and one for strike (azm)

Mirage can definitely be retained till 2030, PAF does not buy parts of it from France. But maybe not all of them can be kept flying, which is why PAF is looking for another aircraft.

I don’t meant to be offensive, but what is your source? Who are you quoting while making such massive claims? Where is your source that france blocked the EAF mirages?
AFAIK, Jordan decided not to upgrade old airframes and instead procure new airframes, however neither upgrade or procurement was verified from a first hand source, rather all third parties. However the Jordanians are training on 72’s in the us so take that as you will.
a standalone version of the J10 EW version? which means a J10 growler specifically for Pakistan, which indeed sounds a bit unrealistic due to cost effectiveness and power issues.
I will second this, I’ve checked extensively with first hand sources and they are unaware of this. I made sure to ask multiple people and all had the same answer.
 

Akh1112

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No it’s not all “open source” most of the stuff you’re claiming simply has no source. Including France blocking the EAF aircraft. Sure it’s easy to draw that conclusion, but France had no trouble delivering more H-125M helicopters after Imrans speech, but they blocked obsolete fighters?

And you think we can get either approval? Biden doesn’t talk to Pakistan and their Congress is not happy because of Afghanistan, though I believe in sudden changes in geopolitics because that’s how it always been.
We don’t know what standard Jordan is upgrading their aircraft too, that’s just another assumption you make, nor have they shown any open interest in selling them recently (they did in 2016 but Pakistan did not buy, though I assume it’s the same offer again that Pakistan is interested in). I still think there is some chance if used F-16s to come, but we’ve known about this since 2016. And it’s highly, highly unlikely anyways.

1) No, a delta doesn’t necessarily need to be replaced by a delta if the capability is there.
2) When did IAF get 1500 aircraft? They have under 700 operational fighter aircraft.
3) When did PAF have more than 260 operational mirages? The numbers are less than 150.
4) Who and where was it said that PAF needs half the fleet of IAF? The numbers are already well above half.


If PAF really wanted more block 3, then there are other engine options available. A new contract can always be signed, not has Russia shown much reluctance to such a contract.

Block 4 is only an if. And it doesn’t seem like it will be needed if J-10Cs come in large numbers. But if it does come it won’t be irrelevant, because it will literally be ordered out of need.

Pakistan offered F35? I almost stopped reading and closed PDF at this point. Won’t happen. Ever.
China is not making any single engine 5th Gen fighter, so also not going to happen anytime soon.
I have large doubts over TFX being ready, even before Azm, it seems like it will hit a lot of snags with how turkeys foreign relations are going, not to mention if it serves the same role as Azm, then there’s little point in buying it. Same with KFX, which I doubt will be offered anyways because it will use American parts with its South Korean connection.
The Russian fighter is truly a possibility if Pakistan considers it, I still feel they could go with two fifth Gen platforms, one multi role and one deep strike, however if Pakistan purchases J-10C in large numbers and continues to purchase more, we will only see Azm, not until another aircraft type needs to be retired, which is more realistic too, PAF doesn’t have unlimited funds.

JF-17B cannot take over the role of either K-8 or T37, you don’t put a pilot in a JF-17 for basic or intermediate training, only Lead In Flight Training (LIFT). IF PAF intends to use JF-17B for LIFT then it will have no more than the current 25 in service.
It will look for basic and intermediate trainers elsewhere, Turkey, China, Europe, Russia.
I can assure you a block 4 or a block "3+" is in the pipeline, whether this applies to new airframes or is something for overhauled airframes remai

let’s break this down;
PAC is actively working on an AESA radar for application on "the JF17, MALE UAVs and other applications".
Unfortunately, for this one you will need to take my word, however, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can attest that I am being truthful.
Alongside this, the PAF wanted more domestic inputs, hence why they signed deals with Chinese companies for development of components for the JF-17, notice how I said development and not license production etc. The PAF wants Pakistani companies in on the program and future programs, to achieve this, they are looking at fresh developments even when there are analogues available on the market, a good example of this is the HMD/s solution. It’s cheaper to buy one of the plethora of options available, however by developing from the ground up with assistance of experienced firms, it gives us the experience to be able to do so ourselves down the line. IMO this is an investment into azm, rhe PAF is serious about taking charge, azm is far out so why not gain experience now and apply it later. IMO the ‘ultimate’ JF-17 is Still a few years out, the block 3 is not the last we will be seeing, I can confidently say right now that an ‘improved block 3/ block’ will come to fruition.

I expect you guys to come back in 10 years and treat me like a messiah when acm announces the rollout of the improved block 3/4
 

iLION12345_1

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AFAIK, Jordan decided not to upgrade old airframes and instead procure new airframes, however neither upgrade or procurement was verified from a first hand source, rather all third parties. However the Jordanians are training on 72’s in the us so take that as you will.

I will second this, I’ve checked extensively with first hand sources and they are unaware of this. I made sure to ask multiple people and all had the same answer.
I agree, I think people are overestimating what is meant by a J-10 EW variant here. Not every EW aircraft on a jet platform instantly becomes a “growler” or is trying to emulate said aircraft. (Infact the growler designation is kinds of used wrongly in general, The growler is just the specific name of the EA-18G used by the US, it isn’t even the first of its kind, that goes to its predecessor, the EA6B prowler).
Nor do I think China made a EW specific J-10 with major modifications for Pakistan to test. Imo they probably just tested J-10C with a more EW-centric loadout equipped on it to see if it could act as somewhat of an EW platform. Maybe bigger/more EW/ECCM/ELINT pods or something of the sort. The fact that it was already rejected as is being claimed or wasn’t cost-effective enough points to that too, probably wasn’t a major modification. Maybe there was no modification at all, just some ideas thrown around that it could be a thing. Nobody has specifically said that China made an EW-specific variant of the J-10C, that would just be a lot of developmental cost and time for no sales. Makes little sense.
 

Akh1112

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I agree, I think people are overestimating what is meant by a J-10 EW variant here. Not every EW aircraft on a jet platform instantly becomes a “growler” or is trying to emulate said aircraft. (Infact the growler designation is kinds of used wrongly in general, The growler is just the specific name of the EA-18G used by the US, it isn’t even the first of its kind, that goes to its predecessor, the EA6B prowler).
Nor do I think China made a EW specific J-10 with major modifications for Pakistan to test. Imo they probably just tested J-10C with a more EW-centric loadout equipped on it to see if it could act as somewhat of an EW platform. Maybe bigger/more EW/ECCM/ELINT pods or something of the sort. The fact that it was already rejected as is being claimed or wasn’t cost-effective enough points to that too, probably wasn’t a major modification. Maybe there was no modification at all, just some ideas thrown around that it could be a thing. Nobody has specifically said that China made an EW-specific variant of the J-10C, that would just be a lot of developmental cost and time for no sales. Makes little sense.
As I have said in the past, IMO a JF-17 based electronic warfare solution is more viable.

However I think people fail to understand the role of the growlers.

the reason the us went for a fighter based ew platform is it needs to be launched from a carrier, the PAF does not need to do this. Therefore, there isn’t really a need for such a platform when you can do stand off range jamming from the bigger birds, which could potentially even carry more powerful payloads. The Turks, the French etc all use this, however stuff like SEAD and EW on a fighter does not automatically mean it’s an electronic attack bird. The Russians use escort jammers on flankers, this does not mean it’s an electronic attack plane, rather, this is all for self defence use I guess.
 

iLION12345_1

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I can assure you a block 4 or a block "3+" is in the pipeline, whether this applies to new airframes or is something for overhauled airframes remai

let’s break this down;
PAC is actively working on an AESA radar for application on "the JF17, MALE UAVs and other applications".
Unfortunately, for this one you will need to take my word, however, @Bilal Khan (Quwa) can attest that I am being truthful.
Alongside this, the PAF wanted more domestic inputs, hence why they signed deals with Chinese companies for development of components for the JF-17, notice how I said development and not license production etc. The PAF wants Pakistani companies in on the program and future programs, to achieve this, they are looking at fresh developments even when there are analogues available on the market, a good example of this is the HMD/s solution. It’s cheaper to buy one of the plethora of options available, however by developing from the ground up with assistance of experienced firms, it gives us the experience to be able to do so ourselves down the line. IMO this is an investment into azm, rhe PAF is serious about taking charge, azm is far out so why not gain experience now and apply it later. IMO the ‘ultimate’ JF-17 is Still a few years out, the block 3 is not the last we will be seeing, I can confidently say right now that an ‘improved block 3/ block’ will come to fruition.

I expect you guys to come back in 10 years and treat me like a messiah when acm announces the rollout of the improved block 3/4
I’m aware of these projects by the PAF and I sincerely hope you are right, because the greater The investment into J-10C and other platforms is, the less JF-17 will get the attention. Most of these projects could just be for Azm and never make it down to JF-17, which is something I don’t want either.

But at the same time it does seem highly likely that this is not the end of the JF lineage, because Azm is still too far away and the JF-17s, even the block 3s, will need some sort of upgrade to stay relevant by the time Azm comes into service, especially since Block 1s will need to be retired before it does. Moreover, they’d need to fly for quite a while after Azm comes into service too, so we should definitely see an upgraded JF down the line, Wether it means more aircraft to also or just upgrades remains to be seen, either way, we’re all hoping for that.

Lastly, it’s great that for once we’re trying for development and not off the shelf or license production, I’ve been calling for it for a while, I don’t think it even matters much if they miserably fail at every single project they’ve set out to make. It’s the first time in Pakistan’s history they’re taking these baby steps, that’s how every large developer of modern weapons started, at least something will come of it, even if it’s just experience, they keep trying and failing for 5, 10, 15 years, eventually they’ll make something.
As I have said in the past, IMO a JF-17 based electronic warfare solution is more viable.

However I think people fail to understand the role of the growlers.

the reason the us went for a fighter based ew platform is it needs to be launched from a carrier, the PAF does not need to do this. Therefore, there isn’t really a need for such a platform when you can do stand off range jamming from the bigger birds, which could potentially even carry more powerful payloads. The Turks, the French etc all use this, however stuff like SEAD and EW on a fighter does not automatically mean it’s an electronic attack bird. The Russians use escort jammers on flankers, this does not mean it’s an electronic attack plane, rather, this is all for self defence use I guess.
Well the PAFs blinder squadron is supposed to be getting a new platform. So there’s an EW upgrade coming, hopefully anyways.
PAF could have been trialing that stuff on J-10 for a number of purposes, but I don’t think it was offensive EW either, as you said, probably more defensive nature. That’s what I meant by people wrongly using the term “growler” to compare it to as well.

As for an EW variant of JF, I doubt they’ll ever consider it sadly, but The ALQ-500P is already a pretty decent self defense pod and jamming pod. but I don’t know enough numbers and specifics to compare it to anything. I’ll leave that To the experts. ^^
 

Akh1112

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I’m aware of these projects by the PAF and I sincerely hope you are right, because the greater The investment into J-10C and other platforms is, the less JF-17 will get the attention. Most of these projects could just be for Azm and never make it down to JF-17, which is something I don’t want either.

But at the same time it does seem highly likely that this is not the end of the JF lineage, because Azm is still too far away and the JF-17s, even the block 3s, will need some sort of upgrade to stay relevant by the time Azm comes into service, especially since Block 1s will need to be retired before it does. Moreover, they’d need to fly for quite a while after Azm comes into service too, so we should definitely see an upgraded JF down the line, Wether it means more aircraft to also or just upgrades remains to be seen, either way, we’re all hoping for that.

Lastly, it’s great that for once we’re trying for development and not off the shelf or license production, I’ve been calling for it for a while, I don’t think it even matters much if they miserably fail at every single project they’ve set out to make. It’s the first time in Pakistan’s history they’re taking these baby steps, that’s how every large developer of modern weapons started, at least something will come of it, even if it’s just experience, they keep trying and failing for 5, 10, 15 years, eventually they’ll make something.

Well the PAFs blinder squadron is supposed to be getting a new platform. So there’s an EW upgrade coming, hopefully anyways.
PAF could have been trialing that stuff on J-10 for a number of purposes, but I don’t think it was offensive EW either, as you said, probably more defensive nature. That’s what I meant by people wrongly using the term “growler” to compare it to as well.

As for an EW variant of JF, I doubt they’ll ever consider it sadly, but The ALQ-500P is already a pretty decent self defense pod and jamming pod. but I don’t know enough numbers and specifics to compare it to anything. I’ll leave that To the experts. ^^
These projects are making great progress, last year AvRID procured an initial tranche of T/R modules for an AESA testbed, once again, you will need to take my word for this one, this took place around 10 months ago.

the J10 I see as an emergency purchase to prevent there being a gap in the PAF’s capabilities, the more important aspect of the j10 buy is that it can be procured via loans and also be delivered fast, unlike the jf17 which will be paid for out of pocket.
I think, based off of the way the paf is structuring their fleet, you won’t really need to do much to the block 3 to keep it relevant.
I have an analogy I like to use;

the PAF is a modern frigate;
The weapons this offensive frigate carries are something like this;
Close in weapons systems; F7’s
Point defence missiles; JF-17s
Wide area AAW is covered by rhe F16
Anti ship missiles come in the form of mirages.

however, rhe future of the PAF looks like this
Ditching CIWS(interceptors, they’ve always been a last line of defence)
Point defence being hand to jf17s and f16s
Wide area AAW being passed to J10s
Anti ship missiles in the form of Mirages, rhe ones not retired alongside azm.
 

araz

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In case you failed to notice Mr Taimi Khan said J-10 C are ready to be delivered. Delay is on our side as we are getting our infrastructure ready. Mr Taimi Khan is also the same guy who broke the news of WING LONG II. So please J-10 C is confirmed thing. The question now remains on the system from west.

That is great question. Although what I know is J-10 were ordered long also we had access to J-10 for really long time. So we could have gotten all the needed weapons integrated with them plus radar and avionics which we require. J-10 C in my opinion would be truly multirole jet for us as it would perform both Air to Air and Air to Ground roles. Still experts could tell details.

@Tipu7
Fully agreed on the MR role of J10 if and when it joins the PAF. As to integration of weapons you need to have OEM permission and therefore the source codes to do so. PAF if it decides to induct J10 will want specs in keeping with its requirement. This could require modifications of software/hardware. The Chinese will be uncomfortable handing over Radar source codes, UNLESS we are going to use locally manufactured/assembled AESA radar on the platform as well. It maybe that which is delaying both JFT AS WELL AS J10 induction. Otherwise why is there such a delay in setting up infrastructure for both platforms. This may point to the delay/prolonged trials of JFT if it is being used as a test platform for the AESA. Now Idont know the diameter of the radar housing but if 720mm is what we are talking about for both platforms they can have commonality of AESA radar and therefore integration of all relevant hardware. Becuase radar is assembled locally giving out source codes will not make ANY party uncomfortable.
A
 

Tomcats

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I don’t meant to be offensive, but what is your source? Who are you quoting while making such massive claims? Where is your source that france blocked the EAF mirages?
He may be referring to a Hindustan Times article a few months ago apparently where France had denied aid to Agostas and asked Qatar to remove any Pakistani components from French military equipment. They have also reportedly asked Pakistani Personnel to not come near their French Military equipment. It is unconfirmed however there were multiple visits to/from Qatar around the same time period and apparently Qatar was pressured by France into informing Pak officials about it and taking action on the demands.
 

Trailer23

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YAK -140 is same airframe with Russian engine. Would you consider it to be equal as best in its class?
I believe you mean the Yak-130.

And though they (M-346 & Yak-130) were co-developed, I wouldn't go far enough to say that they are equal or that the Yak-130 is best in its class.

M-346.jpg
The M-346 also comes with an option of the Grifo-E (AESA) radar...
EW.jpg


On the flipside, the Yak-130 has had its shares of Incidents and accidents - all of which maybe of result of poor training or others reasons (if you may).

Yak-130.jpg

But these are all :offtopic: , so I don't see the nature to take it any further...
The PAF said the airframe has a life of about 20 years (~3,000 hours).
20 Years. Its sounds a lot less than I had anticipated, but is it an average lifecycle that may commonly be heard of? No idea about F-16's, Mirage(s), Gripens etc.

And if that is the case, that would mean that our initial Block I's would be phased out by 2030 if they didn't undertake SLEP.

Q. Is there a possibility that Block III and B-variant be using some other composite material to extend the life beyond 2-decades?
 

Akh1112

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I believe you mean the Yak-130.

And though they (M-346 & Yak-130) were co-developed, I wouldn't go far enough to say that they are equal or that the Yak-130 is best in its class.

The M-346 also comes with an option of the Grifo-E (AESA) radar...
View attachment 765061

On the flipside, the Yak-130 has had its shares of Incidents and accidents - all of which maybe of result of poor training or others reasons (if you may).


But these are all :offtopic: , so I don't see the nature to take it any further...

20 Years. Its sounds a lot less than I had anticipated, but is it an average lifecycle that may commonly be heard of? No idea about F-16's, Mirage(s), Gripens etc.

And if that is the case, that would mean that our initial Block I's would be phased out by 2030 if they didn't undertake SLEP.

Q. Is there a possibility that Block III and B-variant be using some other composite material to extend the life beyond 2-decades?
If my memory serves me well, airframes lives for compatible platforms are something like this;

5500hrs for f16s pre block 40
8000 for block 40 and above

these are pre SLEP.

jf17s from memory should be around 2000-2500, roughly on par with the service life of the rd93

Block 2s and 3s do make use of more composites, however I’m not sure how their service life is effected.
Extending the life of jf17s seems like an expensive proposition, I don’t really know how engine life extension programs work or whether that’s a thing, or whether you’d need to ditch the engines and order new engine
 

Bilal.

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If my memory serves me well, airframes lives for compatible platforms are something like this;

5500hrs for f16s pre block 40
8000 for block 40 and above

these are pre SLEP.

jf17s from memory should be around 2000-2500, roughly on par with the service life of the rd93

Block 2s and 3s do make use of more composites, however I’m not sure how their service life is effected.
Extending the life of jf17s seems like an expensive proposition, I don’t really know how engine life extension programs work or whether that’s a thing, or whether you’d need to ditch the engines and order new engine
We are still flying and extending the life of Mirage 3/5 with expected airframe life of only 1500 Hr. Pretty sure being OEM same can be done for JFT cost effectively.
 

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