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New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Oct 29, 2020
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You also have OCU training and recurrencies for keeping Pilots opertional. PAF would require 100 -150 aircraft as the single seat aircraft would also increase. Please also consider that from Mushak to JF-17 and J-10 and AZM or other FGA would be the aim.
We have dual seat Mirages and F16B for OCU purpose so why we need 100/150 JFTB, look brother we are less relying of western tech and PAF converting itself more and more toward Chinese system so why we need HURJET, and HURJET are just starting, first customers of HURJET is TuAF so it take time to induct HURJET in PAF at least 5/6 years, so isn't better that we can go L15 instead of HURJET
 

Goritoes

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@Caprxl @PanzerKiel

One day when these keyboard warriors, find out what else PAF has been working on, besides new fighter aircrafts, I'd love to see the look on their faces.

Just because of this thread, my popcorn consumption has gone through the roof.:lol:
Sir hum ko keyboard warrior ki jamat mai shamil na karen, hum tu J-10 ki rah dekhte dekhte Ghalib ban gaye hai, raat raat jaag jaag ker Gatorade pi ker South Carolina ki andheri Galiyun mai awaaz lagate hai, Ayeee bhai koi hai, J-10 ki news dene wala... Aur apke Western option ke chakker mai Lockheed Martin ki gate ki ziyarat bhi kar aya yaar, tu mera tu status @PanzerKiel jaise logo ki saff mai hona chaiye.
 
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Zarvan

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No, most probably PAF looking for this
JF-17 Block B I think does the job for us. Although they could be great for both training as well taking out India's attack helicopters and some support to ground troops by taking out India's tanks.
I'm not going to go near the EFT discussion because apparently Pakistan became the first nation whom British Aerospace EAP approached to buy their aircraft without a Tender. Oh well.

As for the Block 70/72. [Yaar, kuch KHUDA ka khoof karo]. The US President has been in Office, what, 6 Months now. He doesn't even want to engage our PM and you think Congress is dying to sell us their brand new F-16's.

I don't know why, but for someone who has been on [PDF] for so long, you seem too gullible for your own good.

I'll tell you what, forget the Block 70/72's. If the US approves to anything that even resembles an F-16 - I will be the first one to start an Apology Topic addressed to you & tag anyone & everyone starting with your Two Sources.

But..., if you're wrong - you'll be the target of mass trolling with each & everyone of your Quotes - purely because you asked for it.

No, its the Sarcastic List.

You should try it sometime. Drives like new - hardly any miles on it.
Sir I never made the claim of something coming from west. I read a claim by a guy here on this forum. Whose claim of J-10 C is most likely true so now I am taking guesses what are chances that his claim of something west could also be true. Let say 50/50 even then we still at least ask what are the options from west. There are only two viable options. One is EFT and one is Block 72. I would have been wrong if I was the one who broke the news of something coming from west. But I am not. So ask that guy who broke the news of two jets. One from east and one from west. I just like others is making guesses. And if J-10 C comes in next few months I don't find any reason to doubt the other claim.
@Caprxl @PanzerKiel

One day when these keyboard warriors, find out what else PAF has been working on, besides new fighter aircrafts, I'd love to see the look on their faces.

Just because of this thread, my popcorn consumption has gone through the roof.:lol:
Sir one thing I really would like to know is that we have around 10 AWACS but we have very less EW jets. Or at least what we know of. Are there any plans to buy more jets and then get them converted into EW Jets from some good European company.
 
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iLION12345_1

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Yes.

Non taken.

Its all open source. Every thing is present on Google and PDF. We only need to decipher it.

There are many posts in the previous pages and other Threads also google would provide many links Specially those that deal with FATIF.

PM Imran's own speech against Macron bulldozed EAF aircraft.

There are two ways of procuring aircraft from the USA.
1) with approval from the Congress
2) Presidential approval only.

Yes. These aircraft are being upgraded to the same specifications as the ones PAF has. The only addition that would be required by PAF is AMRAAM 120C. This could be done locally by PAF.

All these permissions would be given as soon as the aircraft are approved.
Please understand that there are currently no EDF F-16 with PW engine available in US boneyards. Getting less that 100 aircraft with new engines is not possible as it would amount to similar infrastructure costs to induct a new platform.
F-16's which have GE power plant would need Congress clearance for engine along with the airframe where as F-16's with PW engines in Jordan would only require Presidential approval as these aircraft are not on US soil.

I fail to understand why we do not see 1:1 ratio as inevitable. Let me explain...
1) Delta can only be replaced by Delta.
2) PAF needs to maintain a 50% of what ever number of aircraft Indian Air Force has at all times. 2:1 ratio.(1500 aircraft in IAF today. PAF needs 700 aircraft)
Now 100+ F-16 +200 JF-17 + 260 M-3/5 still would be less than the desired numbers. Not to mention that in the next 8-9 years 260+ Mirage need to be replaced.
PAF can not have a fleet of 500 aircraft against 1500 IAF aircraft that is a ratio 1:3.

Unfortunately this order of 30 block 3 is due to Russian Engine contract. All engine contracts that were signed between Russia-China and Russia-Pakistan will be exhausted hence only 30 Block 3 can be provided with the current engine.

Block 4 induction would be in an other 6-7 years which makes it irrelevant. Reason are by that time PAF would be offered the F-35 along with Russian or Chinese Single Engine 5th Gen aircraft. Not to mention Project AZM / TFX and KFX would be also available.

That depends on how PAF manages hence we must look at war times not peace times.

Yes
We still do not know how many sub projects are being developed under Project AZM 🤐

Dont want to take the honor of disclosing from you.

Every thing is technical...Asymmetrical doctrine is fast diminish with SAMs.

Yes... But can PAF induct 250+ aircraft in 9 years?

Expansion of PAC is under way for some time. China closed the production line of JF-17 and started producing more J10's. Where is the the JF-17 line that was closed today? J-10 Line expansion was also part of CPEC where is that today? PAC wanted to start a new manufacturing complex in Nawabshah land was acquired. What is the position on that?
There are so many questions but nothing has been said since initial reports some 7 years back. Pakistan Arms Forces deserve credit for not disclosing information till it is absolutely required. (Shock therapy)

Sir,
2001 US President G.W. Bush Jr. could have been the best bet had Pakistani think tanks done some homework. Pakistan could have only asked for 1 favour remove Pressler Amendment.

War on terror could have provided PAF with European aircraft i.e Gripen had we told the Swedish King you are not cooperating with coalition member along with NATO and all allied countries.

EFT or Rafale would have been supplied under Coallition support fund by other member states.

USA would have seen these developments and offered F-16 or F-15 to Pakistan not to mention AH1-F helis could have been also ordered rather we waited for Zulu.

We waited for the Pressler Amendment to expire by that time things had changed big time. These are fatal mistakes but we must live on them without learning.

Sir PAF with 250-300 aircraft by 2047? Please do not tell me you have shifted sides...
No it’s not all “open source” most of the stuff you’re claiming simply has no source. Including France blocking the EAF aircraft. Sure it’s easy to draw that conclusion, but France had no trouble delivering more H-125M helicopters after Imrans speech, but they blocked obsolete fighters?

And you think we can get either approval? Biden doesn’t talk to Pakistan and their Congress is not happy because of Afghanistan, though I believe in sudden changes in geopolitics because that’s how it always been.
We don’t know what standard Jordan is upgrading their aircraft too, that’s just another assumption you make, nor have they shown any open interest in selling them recently (they did in 2016 but Pakistan did not buy, though I assume it’s the same offer again that Pakistan is interested in). I still think there is some chance if used F-16s to come, but we’ve known about this since 2016. And it’s highly, highly unlikely anyways.

1) No, a delta doesn’t necessarily need to be replaced by a delta if the capability is there.
2) When did IAF get 1500 aircraft? They have under 700 operational fighter aircraft.
3) When did PAF have more than 260 operational mirages? The numbers are less than 150.
4) Who and where was it said that PAF needs half the fleet of IAF? The numbers are already well above half.


If PAF really wanted more block 3, then there are other engine options available. A new contract can always be signed, not has Russia shown much reluctance to such a contract.

Block 4 is only an if. And it doesn’t seem like it will be needed if J-10Cs come in large numbers. But if it does come it won’t be irrelevant, because it will literally be ordered out of need.

Pakistan offered F35? I almost stopped reading and closed PDF at this point. Won’t happen. Ever.
China is not making any single engine 5th Gen fighter, so also not going to happen anytime soon.
I have large doubts over TFX being ready, even before Azm, it seems like it will hit a lot of snags with how turkeys foreign relations are going, not to mention if it serves the same role as Azm, then there’s little point in buying it. Same with KFX, which I doubt will be offered anyways because it will use American parts with its South Korean connection.
The Russian fighter is truly a possibility if Pakistan considers it, I still feel they could go with two fifth Gen platforms, one multi role and one deep strike, however if Pakistan purchases J-10C in large numbers and continues to purchase more, we will only see Azm, not until another aircraft type needs to be retired, which is more realistic too, PAF doesn’t have unlimited funds.
PAF would need to replace approximately 100 K8 and 80 odd T-37 Tweet so 100 -150 JF-17B is a big if. 25 aircraft per year are manufactured so 50 block 3 +100 Bravo would be 6-7 years if PAF does not export any JF-17's.

PAF did some modifications to the Airframe after the JF17 crash. So that would have improved airframe quality and extended flight hours.
JF-17B cannot take over the role of either K-8 or T37, you don’t put a pilot in a JF-17 for basic or intermediate training, only Lead In Flight Training (LIFT). IF PAF intends to use JF-17B for LIFT then it will have no more than the current 25 in service.
It will look for basic and intermediate trainers elsewhere, Turkey, China, Europe, Russia.
 
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NA71

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Good Morning.... Just logged in and saw shopping 🛒 is still empty... You guys still unable to finalize.
Pick one item only from East shelf.... Coz. You are not allowed to buy any thing from West Shelf. 😕
 

iLION12345_1

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Good Morning.... Just logged in and saw shopping 🛒 is still empty... You guys still unable to finalize.
Pick one item only from East shelf.... Coz. You are not allowed to buy any thing from West Shelf. 😕
PAF officials are anxiously waiting for PDF to decide which western platform is to be bought, as soon as PDF can make a collective decision, PAF will order it right away.
 

Metal 0-1

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Bhai you want to make very simple thing difficult then you can continue. Other wise from west we all know either it's Europe or USA. So basically two main options. EFT or Block 72.
Point is; Thand Rakh bhai.

If new fighter is going to join PAF it is going to join eventually one day.
 

Trailer23

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Sir I never made the claim of something coming from west.
No, you didn't and i'm not accusing you that you did. But you're getting overly excited about something that hasn't even happened (officially) on paper - forget signs of an image.
I read a claim by a guy here on this forum. Whose claim of J-10 C is most likely true so now I am taking guesses what are chances that his claim of something west could also be true.
I think it needs to be pointed out that a number of individuals have pointed out towards the J-10C/E - and not just one or two.

If you may recall the DxB AirShow 2019 Topic that I started a couple of years back, I mentioned something about the CATIC rep accidently using the term "J-10P". After that, multiple Topics were using that term. I just merely mentioned the term used by a representative - I sure as hell didn't confirm it.

Then there was a Sino-PAK Exercise from last year & the J-10C diecast model in PAF livery making rounds here, on twitter, facebook etc.

There was Sheikh Rasheed mentioning it in some TV Show. And as much as I like Pindi Boy, the only mode of Transport he knows is the one that moves on tracks.

[PDF] banned member @Sunny4pak has done countless videos on just the J-10...

If you saw my video on the PAF from New Years, you may or may not have noticed this little gem at 2:55 .


Now, should I be given credit for confirming the news? Honestly, I don't care because whatever I know, i'll keep it tight lid on it - and wait for the OFFICIAL CONFORMATION.

No one is accusing you of starting the rumor, but you are most certainly guilty of spreading it like a wild-forest fire by making further assumptions (EFT/Block 72).

Have you given it any serious thought that if it doesn't materialize the way you anticipated or if the deal goes south/bad - how are you gonna come out in that?

If memory serves, last year in the summer..., some were so sure that there were actual J-10's for Pakistan - in Pakistan that were being financed by KSA. But because FM SMQureshi made some statements that upset our good Arab friends, that they refused to pay for those J-10's and so the Chinese took them back like a DVD Player:omghaha: . Now this is level of stupidity that is often discussed often at times here on [PDF].

And you keep telling us again & again that someone told you this - so you are not to blame.

[Bhai jaan, Istikhara kar lo aaj raat aur kal subha jawab dai-daina...]
One is EFT and one is Block 72.
Okay, why Block 72 in particular? Why not used Block 40's OR Block 52's?
 

PurpleButcher

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Yep, that's why IMO the future PAF procurement track is basically a combination of J-10CE and some heavyweight (twin WS-10/AL-31) fighter (ideally AZM or something else). The J-10CE will be the safety if and when AZM runs into snags, hence my 150 plane belief. JF-17 basically got Umar Akmal-ed (we thought it could do more, but at the end of the day, it's an Akmal).
JF was our low end fighter in the mix. By that I mean, it is the minimum we have. And its a pretty capable aircraft to have as your least capable fighter. A pretty advanced lower end fighter.

You may say that PAF did not anticipate not getting any more F16s, or they may have not anticipated country's financial conditions in upcoming years, fighting internal wars etc at the time they were designing and inducting JF. JF was designed to be a modern F7. AESA, HMD, Ability to launch off-boresight Chinese missiles, its a workhorse fighter which represents your minimum/ basic fighter. And I don't think that with these capabilities you can call it an Umar Akmal at all. It is doing pretty well IMO, checks all the project goals.

Yes the situation may have evolved, India has a sizeable number of twin engine fighters now. But to counter that we need similar category fighters from same class. One can not expect the JF to do everything for you.
Just imagine Umar Akmal reading this! And if JF17 is umar akmal , is J-10 the babar azam (cousin of umar akmal) ?
 

Trailer23

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If anyone has a reply to post#7233, please give details.
Sir, those particular questions can only be answered by either the PAF and those whom have already confirmed The Deal here on [PDF].

- Don't expect to get anything out of PAF.

- And as for the people on [PDF] - well, you've been around here long enough to know where they stand.

Finally, if and when the deal is confirmed, you won't be hearing about the armaments' till you actually see them in images and will need to make your own assessments.
 

Signalian

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Sir, those particular questions can only be answered by either the PAF and those whom have already confirmed The Deal here on [PDF].

- Don't expect to get anything out of PAF.

- And as for the people on [PDF] - well, you've been around here long enough to know where they stand.

Finally, if and when the deal is confirmed, you won't be hearing about the armaments' till you actually see them in images and will need to make your own assessments.
I am hardly active except in these eid holidays. One thing more, there was a talk of delta replacing delta. Mirage being a strike aircraft or primary ground attack fighter, how would J-10 fit in for taking air superiority role from F-16 as well as replace all Mirages for ground attack role. Mirage ROSE-1 was for air superiority role only ? its a MRF like F-16 but F-16 squadrons have their own roles, while Mirages became more versatile.
 

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