What's new

New fighter for PAF Doctrine?

Akh1112

FULL MEMBER
Nov 21, 2019
1,234
4
1,968
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Kingdom
The only viable option is see is that someone to our west is retiring some falcons with life left in them. Though I really don’t see how we will fit all of these magic platforms in our fleet without raising new squadrons or degrading our strike front. J-10s are a given and have been known about for a long time, however anything else is highly sceptical and I’m gonna go ahead and stay sceptical until then. In the meantime, if someone wants to ease my workload by spying on PAF bases for me using sentinel, please be my guest, I really cannot be bothered.
 

Pak47

FULL MEMBER
Dec 22, 2011
1,313
0
1,761
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Here’s what I gathered from reading this forum for a long time.

f-16 block 72 w/ Aim 120d ~ 36 mixture of new and old. New ones to come with GE engine. (Some claim some have landed)
Further increase to this order likely.

J10C w/ PL-15 ~ 72 coated with special “dark” paint. 36 ready to be delivered.

Su-35 was used as bargaining chip for EFT which fell through. Not happening at this moment:

Zulos & C-130 on track if not landed.
 

Bilal Khan (Quwa)

SENIOR MEMBER
Aug 22, 2016
5,957
74
23,402
Country
Pakistan
Location
Canada
At the very least the current design of Azm is designed for a twin AL31/WS10 class engine. I think this is a clear indication of what the PAF wants. Of course what the PAF gets will probably be different.
Yep, that's why IMO the future PAF procurement track is basically a combination of J-10CE and some heavyweight (twin WS-10/AL-31) fighter (ideally AZM or something else). The J-10CE will be the safety if and when AZM runs into snags, hence my 150 plane belief. JF-17 basically got Umar Akmal-ed (we thought it could do more, but at the end of the day, it's an Akmal).
 

Trailer23

SENIOR MEMBER
Jun 2, 2012
4,020
109
12,143
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Arab Emirates
I go for a flight in the morning - come back late in the evening, only to find so much has been discussed & apparently procured. Truly don't know how to react to all this...excitement.

Seems like everyone is onboard for the J-10's (one way or another).

Its just the Western jet that has left everyone puzzled - leaving aside those whom have already started to distribute the methais'. As stated, i'll wait for the PAF to announce something. Not interested to waste a hard-__ on worthless info.
@Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Akh1112
 
Last edited:

Dreamer.

FULL MEMBER
Apr 1, 2018
499
0
450
Country
Pakistan
Location
Saudi Arabia
I hope there is no J-10C induction in PAF in any number. I would rather us have 250 JF-17s over another 4th gen Chinese jet. Put the money that will be used to buy a new aircraft into AZM and JF-17 to improve it even further. There are a lot of things that can be added to the Thunder still. Spend that money towards R&D.

If there are any western aircraft coming, they will only be used ones. There are only two options, ie Eurofighter (less likely from UK) and Mirage 2000 (more likely in small numbers from Qatar and Egypt). I would have put used F-16s on here too however PAF seems to be headed away from US options so they might not even be looking to entertain those and waste time and effort.
There are some reports or you might say rumours that UAE might also want to sell their Mirage-2000 aswell. That along with Qatar and/or egypt etc. could make up good numbers but for PAF to consider used Mirage-2000 from any source they would have to bring some capability enhancement that would justify the cost. What would that be? And remember this is a french jet so would need french approval!!

Used F-16 OTOH can never be ruled out by anyone who knows anything about PAF and US/PAK relations, topsy turvy as they are.
 

GriffinsRule

SENIOR MEMBER
Nov 18, 2015
2,752
6
4,151
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
I think the PAF views the JF-17 as basically a new-age F-7/MiG-21 (even though it can be much more if we had invested more in our development capacity earlier on). It's there to train new pilots and carry point-defense/short-range ops.

For offensive operations, the PAF probably wants to move to a mix of heavy- and medium-weight fighters. It appears that the PAF thinks its new medium fighter should be the J-10CE, while the heavy (deep-strike-focused) would be AZM.

IMO the PAF's fleet vision for 2047 may be:
  • 100 AZM (induction 2037-2047)
  • 150 J-10CE (induction 2022-2032)
  • 50 JF-17 Block-III
  • 26 JF-17B
  • 4~6 new tankers
IMO after Swift Retort, I think the PAF genuinely believes that a hard-hitting offensive capability (i.e., most of its fleet) is a must. They'll have a list of targets they need to hit within 18~24 hours, pray it works and stops India from fighting, or go atomic. The J-10CEs and AZMs would fly near or across the border and deploy SOWs en-masse.

My preference would've been to steer AZM towards a twin-engine medium-weight fighter tailored for RD-93MA (but we try to develop our own with Turkey and Ukraine). We think along the lines of one mainstay fighter plus UCAVs and loyal wingmen.

I think picking up the FC-31 and completing its development in Pakistan (independently of J-35) would've been good. Yes, high-risk, but not more so than what we're trying with AZM. Plus with China's lead work and support, we could potentially start the production process in 2030.

Bilal's 2047 fleet:
  • 280 AZM (twin-engine 24,000 kg)
  • ???? UCAVs (single-engine, using the same powerplant as AZM)
  • ???? UTAS (loyal wingman UAVs with a 3-4 kN powerplant built at home)
  • 4~6 A330s we mod with the UPAZ AAR pods with Ukraine
  • 4~6 new AEW&C using Erieye-ER and E190-E2
Well I certainly hope you are far off on your 2047 fleet. We also have no idea if that is really the PAF vision or not. Any why induct 150 J-10s at all? If we are so hard pressed, develop another LO design besides AZM's twin engine one.
 

Trailer23

SENIOR MEMBER
Jun 2, 2012
4,020
109
12,143
Country
Pakistan
Location
United Arab Emirates
Used F-16 OTOH can never be ruled out by anyone who knows anything about PAF and US/PAK relations, topsy turvy as they are.
Okay, lets say for the sake of argument & to keep things in check - lets all give our views on which F-16 might be available (courtesy of another Nation) - in the not-so-distant future. Rule out any former USAF Block 40's or whatever for the time being...
 

Dreamer.

FULL MEMBER
Apr 1, 2018
499
0
450
Country
Pakistan
Location
Saudi Arabia
Okay, lets say for the sake of argument & to keep things in check - lets all give our views on which F-16 might be available (courtesy of another Nation) - in the not-so-distant future. Rule out any former USAF Block 40's or whatever for the time being...
Oh I'm not one to indulge in this kind of speculation..... you got the wrong guy :-) .

I am merely stating the facts. PAF's interest in F-16 is well known and well-documented by authentic sources including recently (and I don't mean any forum ones). Nobody needs any hints or leaks from anyone to be aware of this.

US/PAK relations being topsy turvy and many times unpredictable is also a fact, foreign relations in general are a changing dynamic.
 
Last edited:

White Lion

FULL MEMBER
Apr 24, 2021
269
0
276
Country
United Kingdom
Location
Pakistan
that's more than 200 of them!?
Yes.
I don’t meant to be offensive,
Non taken.
but what is your source?
Its all open source. Every thing is present on Google and PDF. We only need to decipher it.
Who are you quoting while making such massive claims?
There are many posts in the previous pages and other Threads also google would provide many links Specially those that deal with FATIF.
Where is your source that France blocked the EAF mirages?
PM Imran's own speech against Macron bulldozed EAF aircraft.
1) No F-16 are coming, used or new, unless the US gives permission.
There are two ways of procuring aircraft from the USA.
1) with approval from the Congress
2) Presidential approval only.
Jordan is currently upgrading its F-16s and not selling them.
Yes. These aircraft are being upgraded to the same specifications as the ones PAF has. The only addition that would be required by PAF is AMRAAM 120C. This could be done locally by PAF.
If they do plan to sell them. We’d still need US permission to buy them. And then we’d need US permission to upgrade those F-16s to be relevant, for which we would need to buy upgrade packages from the US.
All these permissions would be given as soon as the aircraft are approved.
Please understand that there are currently no EDF F-16 with PW engine available in US boneyards. Getting less that 100 aircraft with new engines is not possible as it would amount to similar infrastructure costs to induct a new platform.
F-16's which have GE power plant would need Congress clearance for engine along with the airframe where as F-16's with PW engines in Jordan would only require Presidential approval as these aircraft are not on US soil.
2) J-10C simply cannot replace mirage on 1:1 Ratio, too many aircraft. Will not happen. Even if they are coming.
I fail to understand why we do not see 1:1 ratio as inevitable. Let me explain...
1) Delta can only be replaced by Delta.
2) PAF needs to maintain a 50% of what ever number of aircraft Indian Air Force has at all times. 2:1 ratio.(1500 aircraft in IAF today. PAF needs 700 aircraft)
Now 100+ F-16 +200 JF-17 + 260 M-3/5 still would be less than the desired numbers. Not to mention that in the next 8-9 years 260+ Mirage need to be replaced.
PAF can not have a fleet of 500 aircraft against 1500 IAF aircraft that is a ratio 1:3.
4) No they’re not, only 30 new aircraft ordered so far and 20 older ones to be upgraded.
Unfortunately this order of 30 block 3 is due to Russian Engine contract. All engine contracts that were signed between Russia-China and Russia-Pakistan will be exhausted hence only 30 Block 3 can be provided with the current engine.
5) Block 4 is a possibility if PAF thinks it needs it, the block 1s will need to be retired before Azm goes online. I think a single engine 5th Gen is a possibility too, maybe a foreign one, but there’s literally one option in the world right now, which recently got unveiled. maybe more will come, but there’s also no projects currently. Though it makes sense that PAF will have two 5th gens, one for multi-role (single engine) and one for strike (azm)
Block 4 induction would be in an other 6-7 years which makes it irrelevant. Reason are by that time PAF would be offered the F-35 along with Russian or Chinese Single Engine 5th Gen aircraft. Not to mention Project AZM / TFX and KFX would be also available.
Mirage can definitely be retained till 2030, PAF does not buy parts of it from France. But maybe not all of them can be kept flying, which is why PAF is looking for another aircraft.
That depends on how PAF manages hence we must look at war times not peace times.
PAF already said that AZM will be 2 engine medium weight
Yes
We still do not know how many sub projects are being developed under Project AZM 🤐
Close, my dear, very close, but not quiet there yet!
Dont want to take the honor of disclosing from you.
Keeping M3/5 flying till 2030 is not a technical issue, but has to do with obsolescence & doctrine.
Every thing is technical...Asymmetrical doctrine is fast diminish with SAMs.
Bhai.
PAC Chairman is on record saying MRF has its books full till 2025.
Yes... But can PAF induct 250+ aircraft in 9 years?
Look at the J10 acquisition ( I still remain sceptical in spite of some very reliable posters pointing to its sale) even if 2 squadron were acquired initial platforms arriving within 6 months then full delivery will take anywhere between 12 to 18 months(based on F16 delivery schedules) then you set up infrastructure overhauling facilities repair centre staff training. This will not happen overnight and will require time.
Expansion of PAC is under way for some time. China closed the production line of JF-17 and started producing more J10's. Where is the the JF-17 line that was closed today? J-10 Line expansion was also part of CPEC where is that today? PAC wanted to start a new manufacturing complex in Nawabshah land was acquired. What is the position on that?
There are so many questions but nothing has been said since initial reports some 7 years back. Pakistan Arms Forces deserve credit for not disclosing information till it is absolutely required. (Shock therapy)
I think the PAF views the JF-17 as basically a new-age F-7/MiG-21 (even though it can be much more if we had invested more in our development capacity earlier on). It's there to train new pilots and carry point-defense/short-range ops.

For offensive operations, the PAF probably wants to move to a mix of heavy- and medium-weight fighters. It appears that the PAF thinks its new medium fighter should be the J-10CE, while the heavy (deep-strike-focused) would be AZM.

IMO the PAF's fleet vision for 2047 may be:
  • 100 AZM (induction 2037-2047)
  • 150 J-10CE (induction 2022-2032)
  • 50 JF-17 Block-III
  • 26 JF-17B
  • 4~6 new tankers
IMO after Swift Retort, I think the PAF genuinely believes that a hard-hitting offensive capability (i.e., most of its fleet) is a must. They'll have a list of targets they need to hit within 18~24 hours, pray it works and stops India from fighting, or go atomic. The J-10CEs and AZMs would fly near or across the border and deploy SOWs en-masse.

My preference would've been to steer AZM towards a twin-engine medium-weight fighter tailored for RD-93MA (but we try to develop our own with Turkey and Ukraine). We think along the lines of one mainstay fighter plus UCAVs and loyal wingmen.

I think picking up the FC-31 and completing its development in Pakistan (independently of J-35) would've been good. Yes, high-risk, but not more so than what we're trying with AZM. Plus with China's lead work and support, we could potentially start the production process in 2030.

Bilal's 2047 fleet:
  • 280 AZM (twin-engine 24,000 kg)
  • ???? UCAVs (single-engine, using the same powerplant as AZM)
  • ???? UTAS (loyal wingman UAVs with a 3-4 kN powerplant built at home)
  • 4~6 A330s we mod with the UPAZ AAR pods with Ukraine
  • 4~6 new AEW&C using Erieye-ER and E190-E2
Sir,
2001 US President G.W. Bush Jr. could have been the best bet had Pakistani think tanks done some homework. Pakistan could have only asked for 1 favour remove Pressler Amendment.

War on terror could have provided PAF with European aircraft i.e Gripen had we told the Swedish King you are not cooperating with coalition member along with NATO and all allied countries.

EFT or Rafale would have been supplied under Coallition support fund by other member states.

USA would have seen these developments and offered F-16 or F-15 to Pakistan not to mention AH1-F helis could have been also ordered rather we waited for Zulu.

We waited for the Pressler Amendment to expire by that time things had changed big time. These are fatal mistakes but we must live on them without learning.

Sir PAF with 250-300 aircraft by 2047? Please do not tell me you have shifted sides...
 

White and Green with M/S

SENIOR MEMBER
Oct 29, 2020
3,763
-2
1,986
Country
Pakistan
Location
United States
Yes
We still do not know how many sub projects are being developed under Project AZM 🤐
than why you say in your post That AZM would be single engine/light weight jet???
Iraq, Jordan, Egypt
No only Iraqi F16 is available to us, Jordan are upgrading its f16 and not intended to sell it , same goes to Egyptian F16 they are not for sell, give me some proofs that these 2 countries (Jordan and Egypt) are selling their F16??
 

Hawkeye1

FULL MEMBER

New Recruit

Sep 11, 2020
17
1
79
Country
Pakistan
Location
Pakistan
There are some reports or you might say rumours that UAE might also want to sell their Mirage-2000 aswell. That along with Qatar and/or egypt etc. could make up good numbers but for PAF to consider used Mirage-2000 from any source they would have to bring some capability enhancement that would justify the cost. What would that be? And remember this is a french jet so would need french approval!!
Why are you suggesting M2k? When we are already getting J10C. Just acquire them in good numbers.
 

White Lion

FULL MEMBER
Apr 24, 2021
269
0
276
Country
United Kingdom
Location
Pakistan
There are some reports or you might say rumours that UAE might also want to sell their Mirage-2000 aswell. That along with Qatar and/or egypt etc. could make up good numbers but for PAF to consider used Mirage-2000 from any source they would have to bring some capability enhancement that would justify the cost. What would that be? And remember this is a french jet so would need french approval!!

Used F-16 OTOH can never be ruled out by anyone who knows anything about PAF and US/PAK relations, topsy turvy as they are.
Mirage 2000 is not like Mirage 3/5 hence PAF would not want it now. Mirage F-1 could be purchased.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Total: 11, Members: 1, Guests: 10)


Top Bottom